Cold Air

pugrambo

pugrambo

Going slightly mad
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for those who are running 604's i have just finished modifying a 2 litre escort air cleaner to fit onto a weber on the other 1/2's 604
they are plastic in construction and i cut the snorkel back to around 40mm from the air cleaner and fitted a 75mm dia tube from there all the way down to the front of the engine bay with a 200mm bell on the end so as to force cool air up into the air cleaner
the difference in economy is simply amazing and the car seems to have a little more pick up on the open road as well
all i have to do now is adjust jet sizes a little for a little more economy
the car doesn't need to be an ultra quick car for her but i don't want to sacrafice all the power
mind you the car just returned from melbourne towing another 604 from there fairly easily and returned around 16mpg average and that was without the cold air pipe and new air cleaner
maybe i should have made this mod before the trip :D
still on the hunt for a low comp inlet manifold for a 604 and a pair of late model 504 lower control arms so i can lower the front end by around 3" and retain the camber angle
 
Originally posted by pugrambo:
<strong>f
still on the hunt for a low comp inlet manifold for .... a pair of late model 504 lower control arms so i can lower the front end by around 3" and retain the camber angle</strong><hr></blockquote>

Shudder!! Call me a stick in the mud, but I hate this business of lowering older Peugeots. One of the great joys of Peugeots and Citroens of that era is the fantastic, controlled long wheel travel that gives these cars their distinctive ride and incredible rough road ability through superior ground clearance and control.

Now, to be fair, I've never own a 604, and I understand they are a bit on the sloppy side compared to 504's and 505's, but is it really a good idea to go chopping the front suspension? Wouldn't a stiffer roll bar or similar be a better option?

Cheers

Rod
Click to expand...
 
the ride does become firner as a result and this is because a shorter spring is the same as a shorter lever
this will be the 3rd or 4th 604 i have lowered like this
i also intend on putting a 2nd sway bar on the car as well
the thing i have found with 504's and 604's is stiffening the front end and basically leaving the rear along bar a good pair of shocks
one 504 i had sat pretty low and ran 3 deg neg camber on the front and 1 1/2 neg on the rear
still had pretty close to pug ride quality but the handling was great without a lot of the dreaded pug body roll
 
Originally posted by pugrambo:
<strong>
still had pretty close to pug ride quality but the handling was great without a lot of the dreaded pug body roll</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ah, but over the years your sense of balance adjusts to the body roll and it becomes a thing of beauty rather than something to be dreaded!

Reading various "young guns" postings about lifting a wheel in their 205s and 306 's here the other day reminded me of a 403 that I used to punt around some fairly tight roads in east Gippsland with a big Canadian canoe on top in the late 60's. Some of the locals were impressed with me "lifting a wheel" on particular bends, but it always seemed to me to indicate that the prodigous rear suspension travel of the 403 by the standards of the day was still not adequate ;)

Cheers

Rod
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Rod Hagen:
<strong>

but it always seemed to me to indicate that the prodigous rear suspension travel of the 403 by the standards of the day was still not adequate ;)

Rod</strong><hr></blockquote>

My 306 S16, although lowered, still has heaps of rear wheel travel which makes it quite domestic over speed bumps and put holes, however as the rear sway bar it quite large, it still retains its wheel lifting traits and flat stance on tight corners.
Click to expand...
 
my 306 GTi6 is great for lifting a wheel mainly on driveways
on the road it is pretty flat through corners
as much as i love my pugs i just can't seem to get used to the body roll on earlier models
the V6 504 i had was lowered and stiffened all round and was a great handling machine
plus for take off or putting power down on the road if the rear dips too much you suffer power loss hence the need for good shocks in the rear
also twin sway bars on the front reduce nose dive under heavy breaking which is also a safety factor
 
Talking about driveways, a mate of mine has a driveway with a rather deep gutter which I have to take on a 45deg angle. If I stop on it only 2 wheels are on the ground while the car balances.

Also, if I jack the car up to change the front tyre, the rear comes off first :)

Whacky French engineers :D :D

But back to the topic, I replaced the standard intake unit with a pod filter and put the element in at the bottom of the front Left hand guard. Although this has increased power, it has had 2 major drawbacks.

1. At that location its very suseptable to heat soak off a hot road and power drops noticably around town on 35+ days.

2. Water. I got caught out last year in some mighty bad weather. The filter got totally suberged but lucky I had the peice of mind to kill the engine just as I went into it. It was raining THAT heavy that it was impossible to tell water on the road from the large pools.
Needless to say, I pushed it so a safe location and dryed out the whole intake with a hairdryer.

[ 15 February 2002: Message edited by: Phasis ]</p>
 
RE: the original topic, I feel the same way about hot air intakes. For example, on the 404 injection engine, the "export" cars had an oil bath air filter with air intake right behind the radiator. Great for cold weather driving (Canadian style) maybe...but taking in air at 50 or 60 degrees is sort of like having a reverse intercooler...

So I'm trading my 404 Coupé's oil bath filter for a conventional replaceable element canister filter from a French model 404 Injection. Exactly why my French friend wants the export filter is beyond me, but who am I to question it? Anyway, these domestic-market air filter units have a cold air intake, with a very large diameter rubber hose channeling air from a round opening in the sheetmetal behind the grille (but well away from the radiator) straight into the air filter. I imagine that this will have some beneficial effect upon power, however nominal it may be.

The very least that this filter assembly change will do is stop the original filter from pissing oil all over the valve cover (which they ALL do, at least on 404s). The oil always leaks out the bottom, maybe two drips per day. That was very annoying :D

[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: Mike Tippett ]</p>
 
504 TIs have an oil bath air cleaner in the front corner of the engine bay, with a rubber hose (of significant proportion) taking air from just ahead of the radiator.

Strangely, I have only got one of these in good order, despite getting no fewer than six sets of TI gear... one was even deliberatly bypassed on the car it came from!

Regarding the body roll... you and I had better have a chat, pugrambo!

Body roll is okay, just get used to it and fall in love with the fact that your wheels are all on the road!
 
Hee,hee,

I think I need to take him for a 'spirited' drive in my old ID19... He'll be white & shaky by the end of the drive, and probably sure I'm bent on suicide. Scatch that, I'll take him in the 2CV :eek: :eek: Now were talkin :D

I'll convince him there's nothin wrong with bodyroll, I'll also convince him you can't 'roll' one of these cars, no-matter how much effort I put into trying to :p :p

Remember trying my best to roll a Renault 4 (paddock bomb) bloody thing just wouldn't go over. Let's not mention the Marina coupe I used to have as a paddock bomb though (strangly though it had little bodyroll, nothing I'd call 'handling'. Basicly if you want to know what a car should never do drive one of these).

seeya,
Shane L.
 
Originally posted by DoubleChevron:
<strong>.....Remember trying my best to roll a Renault 4 (paddock bomb) bloody thing just wouldn't go over.....</strong><hr></blockquote>


Funny, I had a friend (or was he?) who rolled one twice!

The day after getting it back repaired after putting it on its side at Kurrajong Heights, he ran his former passenger and said, "Remember you asking what it might be like if it went all the way over? ....."
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by DoubleChevron:
<strong>
I'll convince him there's nothin wrong with bodyroll, I'll also convince him you can't 'roll' one of these cars, no-matter how much effort I put into trying to .</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hate to say it Shane, but I've been in two French car roll overs. The first was a Peugeot 403 , soon after I learnt to drive, back in the 60's. Hit a puddle while wearing awful Goodyear crossplies in the rain, veered into the oncoming traffic on Forest Way, over-corrected, and went sideways into a bank on my side of the road. The car rolled completely, ending up back on its wheels, and I walked away without a scratch. It convinced me of the merits of safety belts, which weren't compulsory back then. I can still see the faces of the man and woman in the car coming towards me when I was on the wrong side of the road!

The second one was an immaculate Renault 10, in which I was teaching a girlfriend to drive in about 1970. For some reason, only known to her (it was a strange relationship) she decided to ignore all of my pleas to slow down while I was taking her for a training session on a dirt road. I hung on white knuckled and desperate, while she completed four wheel drifts around a couple of right angle bends before she slid into a culvert and we were left hanging upside down. Again, it was good ad for seatbelts (but not for the sanity of this particular girlfriend). Again, no physical injuries.

So yes, you can roll a French car. Its just that you have to hit something going sideways to do it.

Cheers

Rod

[ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</p>
Click to expand...
 
Hey Guys,

You's all crazy :rolleyes: . I meant in 'normal' driving. Any car will roll, it just needs something to 'trip' it. ie, hitting an embankment while sideways, backing off in mid corner while drive a rear engine R8/R10 very hard through corners (they tuck the rear wheel under & over you go!).

Personaly I was just going to scare him, but if you wan't me to 'trip' the car with something, please supply, car, racing harness, helmet & roll cage :p :p :p :p

seeya,
Shane L.
 
Just to add a comment or two on the original thread (Cold Air).

When it comes to the performance phase in pilot training, the topic of "Density Altitude" and its effect on both airframe and engine (piston and gas turbine)performance is covered in some detail.

There are many examples of both take-off and landing accidents / incidents that have arisen due to the pilot not appreciating the effect on his aircrafts performance due to rising temperatures and decreasing air density (hence reducing mass flow).

One of my son's had a nicely warmed 1.3 engine in his R10. However, the effect of increasing engine bay temperatures had a dramatic effect on power available, especially on a hot day. He designed a very neat cold air box which bolted to the Lynx manifold for the side draft Weber, then ducted the intake to a scoop outside the radiator panel. The difference was very noticeable.

The night before flying to Spain, my wife and I were returning from Tenterfield in the 505 STI, complete with trailer and a load of wood. Again, the combination of a cool night and premium fuel (Optimax going up / Ampol Gold coming back)had the car usually in no lower a gear than 4th on most hills. Many engine bays do not accomodate for ram or cool air induction (unlike the 505 STI etc.)

Cheers,
Kim.
 
Other ideas when it comes to cold air intakes is to setup a large pickup as close to the airflow stagnation point as possible (normally between the bottom of the headlights and mid bumper region) because that is where, at speed, the highest air pressure will be.

Convoluted or corragated tubing from the pickup is not recommended as this will slow down the airflow. A big, smooth rubber or plastic pipe with as few bends as possible to the original filter box is the best way to go.

A bellmouth shape at the end of the tube will obviously aid airflow too.

Julian Edgar, the editor of Autospeed, once measured a substantial pressure increase in his intake system once he followed these methods, and as a result cured a few nasty negative pressure points in the intake.
 
Interesting. I've often wondered about the "standard" air intake on the 505sli wagons - a simple rubber hose tucked down behind the left headlight, squeezed by the electric fan relay box, and with a horizontal opening.

Now the SLi isn't renowned for blistering performance, so maybe it won't make any difference, but has anyone experimented with relocating / modifying the air intake on sli's?

Cheers

Rod
 
Hey Rod, just noticed this post and thought it was relevant given recent discussions... I'd recommend playing around with the air pickup point and check out the effectiveness with the manometer! :)

If the opening to the pipe is right up near another object, I might suggest it's not doing good things for flow.. a good 2-3cm clearance is acceptable. A bell-mouthed entry to the pipe would probably help too. If you can get the tube near an unused factory spotlight opening, or other opening in the front grille/bumper, that's the best option.

If you take a reading with the manometer, and find there's a bit of restriction, you'll find a well placed, and sealed intake pickup point in the front will reduce the negative pressure (very hard to get positive pressure, however...)

Cheers,
Adrian
 
Thanks Adrian. I'll build my manometer when I'm back from a trip to north Queensland next week (ah, the joys of driving Toyotas from Townsville to Mt Isa and round about - NOT)

The air intake seems extremely odd on the sLi to me. Not only is it horizontal, but its directly behind the left headlight, with the electro fan relay box squeezed down on top.

My guess is that they tried to get it as far forward as possible (for cool air), but wanted a horizontal inlet to stop too much water getting in from rain, road splashes etc etc. Maybe they rely on the bernouli effect across the aperture sucking in the air (thinking back to Julius, Karl and first year high school science - 1964 edition) .

I'll experiment as soon as I get the chance.

Cheers

Rod
 
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