Hi Greg, is the Windsor unit the modified under-dash set up? (Autoclim factory?)
Cheers,
Adrian
Cheers,
Adrian
Citroen CX Air Cond Options
- Thread starter Chatty
- Start date
Hi Adrian
no the Windsor unit is the rear unit as fitted to cars up to about 1980 in Australia. Later 2500s had a Autoclima unit which I don't think is as good. Rob T's rear unit is a Windsor.
As for the front unit I have never seen a Xantia fan unit out of the car. I wonder how much bigger they are than the CX unit and if so I wonder how hard it would be to modify the CX system to fit one. I think you would get more airflow but it would be a bit noisier.
no the Windsor unit is the rear unit as fitted to cars up to about 1980 in Australia. Later 2500s had a Autoclima unit which I don't think is as good. Rob T's rear unit is a Windsor.
As for the front unit I have never seen a Xantia fan unit out of the car. I wonder how much bigger they are than the CX unit and if so I wonder how hard it would be to modify the CX system to fit one. I think you would get more airflow but it would be a bit noisier.
I am in the process of insulating from front to back, all except the ceiling area, and will tint it with ceramic tint (60% total solar block-out; 97% infra=red block-out claimed, no signal interference).
The next job is to get to the evaporator and seal it and stuff. Then I will try to see if the fan can be re-jigged to work faster.
We gassed it up with 134a and it is only cool so far, so it needs something. Possibly needs a TX valve to suit 134a, at least. Has a slow leak at the compressor, but the air-con man suggested the seals may seal themselves, since it has not been driven for 5 years till now. I am sceptical. The compressor is working well though.
Another crew re-gassed my Pug 405 with Hi-Chill by mistake. They told me they did it because they initially quoted me $150 and this was not enough to cover the 134a! So that is the last time they will see me. It was not performing well in the Pug, and the new air-con man was not very enthusiastic about Hi-Chil. He says it does not have the same heat absorption capacity as 134a.
JohnW, what is the likely price for an athermic windscreen? I will address all the other issues first, but if it will make the standard system work well, I will consider it.
Shane, would appreciate that part number? Actually, after they gassed it up and he took some pressure readings, he was quite impressed with the fans in the front, and was thinking the condenser may not be the biggest problem. He asked me to see if I can get an electrical crew to find a solution for the internal fan, which i will ask about next.
The next job is to get to the evaporator and seal it and stuff. Then I will try to see if the fan can be re-jigged to work faster.
We gassed it up with 134a and it is only cool so far, so it needs something. Possibly needs a TX valve to suit 134a, at least. Has a slow leak at the compressor, but the air-con man suggested the seals may seal themselves, since it has not been driven for 5 years till now. I am sceptical. The compressor is working well though.
Another crew re-gassed my Pug 405 with Hi-Chill by mistake. They told me they did it because they initially quoted me $150 and this was not enough to cover the 134a! So that is the last time they will see me. It was not performing well in the Pug, and the new air-con man was not very enthusiastic about Hi-Chil. He says it does not have the same heat absorption capacity as 134a.
JohnW, what is the likely price for an athermic windscreen? I will address all the other issues first, but if it will make the standard system work well, I will consider it.
Shane, would appreciate that part number? Actually, after they gassed it up and he took some pressure readings, he was quite impressed with the fans in the front, and was thinking the condenser may not be the biggest problem. He asked me to see if I can get an electrical crew to find a solution for the internal fan, which i will ask about next.
Hi there.
I've no idea to be honest. Every now and again the subject comes up and I've always said I'd buy one, but I gather a batch is needed. Nor do I know how or where to go to get it organised. But if enough people wanted one it might be realistic.
Cheers
John
I've no idea to be honest. Every now and again the subject comes up and I've always said I'd buy one, but I gather a batch is needed. Nor do I know how or where to go to get it organised. But if enough people wanted one it might be realistic.
Cheers
John
This is the condenser I used...
As you can see it's has a lot of tubes per square inch.
It would likely have double the capacity of the original condenser.
As for fans, if you have a good solid 12volts at the fan motor, that's about as good as it get. To get any better you would need to throw away the whole heaterbox setup. Chris Stuart over in Perth tried a leaf blow strapped to the bonnet vent/intake and found you couldn't flow more air even with an air blower screaming flat out into it... there's too many restrictions in the intake ducting, and it's already flowing at mixumum capacity
With insulation, good working front/rear units (especially with hychill in them.... it's considerably more efficient than R134a) you'll have a nice cool car, even in 44degree heat when the suns not out. With the sun out, you still die under that huge windscreen. The final bit is the windscreen tinting. An athermic windscreen would do it .... you'd have a nice cool CX to travel in, even in direct hot sunshine.
This is it here ...
http://speedyairspares.com.au/produ..._8_Parallel_Flow_O_ring_Condenser-39-163.html
Like I said, not really cheap
Look how cheap a full A/C system is in the US
How do they do it over there ?http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/UNIVERSA..._Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a8a9379c7&_uhb=1
seeya,
Shane L.
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Hi
Not sure if you guys have discussed this before, but I was thinking to get the fan to do more work either means making it spin a lot faster or fit a different impeller with deeper blades. Maybe a brushless dc motor could be sourced to spin the impeller faster instead of the existing motor?
Marc
Via the aussiefrogs App
Not sure if you guys have discussed this before, but I was thinking to get the fan to do more work either means making it spin a lot faster or fit a different impeller with deeper blades. Maybe a brushless dc motor could be sourced to spin the impeller faster instead of the existing motor?
Marc
Via the aussiefrogs App
Based on experience he wrong is on both counts.
Possibly time to find a third air con man?
I'm just insulating and sealing my ventilation system currently. With the tower out the air being blown into the cabin was greatly improved. Nearly keen to bypass the tower & run a duct direct from inside to blower. But that's not original & run the risk of stale &/or exhaust gasses building up in the cabin. I tried to fit a second fan yet the room is just not to be found. I have a Nissan blower motor and blades that nearly fits the existing unit. It is stronger but once connected up no difference at vents. A direct 12volt current to the fan gives the best outcome. I'm also rebuilding the reticulation flap motor. Jaycar as the various parts required. I will set it up with a toggle switch to prevent it burning out instead of the factory set up.Try your local radiator places for good second hand condensers. Valley radiators Brisbane for example took my old condenser, Matched it with a modern parallel flow unit, pressure tested it, repainted it. Sealed with caps for $90 incl. warranty. Orion compressors have the upgraded genuine SD7 (old one only 5 cylinders) for $395 Or Chinese copy SD508 on eBay for just $125 plus delivery. Speedy air do the DIY hose kits for $305 plus postage (includes crimping tool) I also found Jag spares Melbourne have rear A/C units from late model Landrover discovery's for around $90 incl. delivery (It is a Sanden made unit with a thick parallel flow evaporator) I still need to source a solenoid gas cut out for the rear unit. It has taken a while to get to this stage as many other repairs have cropped up as being more important I.e. Steering rack overhaul (easier without a/c pipework in the way) I will go Hychill as R134a is being phased out and the replacement HFO R1234yf may run at a higher pressure and is mildly flammable anyway.
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Based on experience he wrong is on both counts.
Possibly time to find a third air con man?
That's for sure.... Shane told me which CX he picked up ......... The car he has is well known and very much worth spending the time, effort and money on...
Given it's an import it only has front A/C .... Personally I think the only way ahead is fitting a rear unit from a local car............... Ummmm..... It sounds like his A/C guy "converted" the car from R12 to R134a by simply adding the R134a.... without changing all the 'O'rings and flushing the whole thing and adding the correct oil. Hopefully the car had already been converted in the past, that's why he only added R134a.
Hychill is 15->30% more efficient than R134a ... so it is worth while.
You guys are wasting your time talking fan upgrades. The air flow the heaterbox is capable of is already 100% ... If you can tape a leaf blower to the intake, and get no extra air from the vents, you are at the systems capacity. ie: the airflow is terrible, and always will be.
The rear unit on mine can freeze the lower portion of the rear window over. It's the REAR UNIT and a tinted winscreen that will make the car nice and cool inside. I can travel quite comforably in the CX here in 40+ degree weather IF THE SUN ISN"T OUT. Even though the inside of the car is nice and cool, you die sitting under that bloody great winscreen, while the kids in the back shiver under blankets ( 'cos the rear unit is blowing cold air down there backs :crazy: :crazy: )
seeya,
Shane L.
It seems to me that the passenger compartment is quite well sealed. Good door and boot seals!
A fan forcing air into this compartment will eventually be forced to cavitate as the air pressure will rise slightly above the out side air pressure. Bit like trying to blow more air into a fully inflated balloon.
The C pillars on my CX have this nice brushed aluminium trim complete with horizontal air vents at the lower edge.
I found that when the trims were removed that these vents had been rendered useless. The factory had stuck a piece of vinyl over the corresponding outlet in the C pillar underneath the trim.
The air in a non air conditioned car is supposed to flow through the cabin and exit through these vents. There is a section on the inside C pillar trim that is shaped to allow air to enter and then pass through the C pillar from the upper inner duct down the inside of the C pillar and out to the external atmosphere.
Of course I removed the vinyl patch and consigned it to the bin.
It is amazing how much more air now passes through the cabin from the fans.
I have yet to refill the air con system with Hychil. I do however look forward to an efficient cooling from the system. The car's aircon actually was not bad when I had it on the road fourteen years ago. It was only filled with an R12 substitute ( not sure which one ).
The key to having it work well was to allow the warmed air out as the cooled air was fed in. This is probably why the cars that still have that silly patch in place only function well on 'Recirculate'. The air has some where to go in the recirculate mode!!!!!!
By the way this car is a 1978 model with the early single evaporator in the console.
Another important mod was to install a secondary vacuum operated heater tap to back up the original manual tap on the side of the heater box. That tap also had to be reconditioned to work effectively!
A fan forcing air into this compartment will eventually be forced to cavitate as the air pressure will rise slightly above the out side air pressure. Bit like trying to blow more air into a fully inflated balloon.
The C pillars on my CX have this nice brushed aluminium trim complete with horizontal air vents at the lower edge.
I found that when the trims were removed that these vents had been rendered useless. The factory had stuck a piece of vinyl over the corresponding outlet in the C pillar underneath the trim.
The air in a non air conditioned car is supposed to flow through the cabin and exit through these vents. There is a section on the inside C pillar trim that is shaped to allow air to enter and then pass through the C pillar from the upper inner duct down the inside of the C pillar and out to the external atmosphere.
Of course I removed the vinyl patch and consigned it to the bin.
It is amazing how much more air now passes through the cabin from the fans.
I have yet to refill the air con system with Hychil. I do however look forward to an efficient cooling from the system. The car's aircon actually was not bad when I had it on the road fourteen years ago. It was only filled with an R12 substitute ( not sure which one ).
The key to having it work well was to allow the warmed air out as the cooled air was fed in. This is probably why the cars that still have that silly patch in place only function well on 'Recirculate'. The air has some where to go in the recirculate mode!!!!!!
By the way this car is a 1978 model with the early single evaporator in the console.
Another important mod was to install a secondary vacuum operated heater tap to back up the original manual tap on the side of the heater box. That tap also had to be reconditioned to work effectively!
Yell out when your ready to gas it up..... All you'll need is a universal RD. I should have enough oil and shellite here to flush and renew it's oil before it's gassed up....
I'm going to add the mechanical tap into a heater hose to the CX here while it's cooling system is apart. I'm happy for it to be a mechancial tap that opened/closed under the bonnet. The way I can leave it open and just close it if required in the middle of summer (I doubt it'll make much difference if your heater box is all sealed up).
seeya,
Shane L.
A $2.50 12 volt hobby motor equals a working vent motor. Hack saw off the imbedded motor. Remove gear off burn out shaft. Refit & test. 
Is the motor you fitted designed to sit stalled indefinitely
the crazy design of that motor means it'll drive to the end of the flaps travel then sit there stalled permanently until you change the flap, then it'll drive to the other end of the gear and sit permanently stalled there Crazy design !
Is the motor you fitted designed to sit stalled indefinitely
Unfortunately all of them failed over time due to this design. I let it crank to the desired position then disconnected it. I'll connect a power window switch in due course. Next sorting out a remote heater tap or as you suggested just open manually during winter. VN-Vy Commodore have a vacuum tap set up with a built in flow back. Not sure yet how to make that work? Could use another electric operated tap with additional window switch instead.
I took a photo of the heater tap in my car yesterday. It is a simple 1/2" nickel plated brass steel ball valve with a hose tail fitted each end. These are high quality industrial valves used in many industries. They are cheap and simple. Any hydraulic supplier will have them. Probably also available in Bunnings, although they are unlikely to have the hose tails.
Or you could get one on Fleabay http://stores.ebay.com.au/The-Hoze-Joint/Ball-Valves-/_i.html?_fsub=372961319&_sid=920070059&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
This valve has been in this car 10+ years. It gets turned on in winter (about 3 months in Brisbane) and turned off for the rest of the year. I've never experienced any issues with the heater or cooling system. But I do open the valve when changing / bleeding coolant.
I did wire up a micro switch to the temperature lever in the centre console, so that the switch activates when the temp lever is pushed fully to the cold position. You can see the yellow wire that comes from the switch in the photo. I was going to fit a vacuum solenoid and Commodore heater tap - but I never got around to it. The manual tap isn't that hard to live with in this climate.
Or you could get one on Fleabay http://stores.ebay.com.au/The-Hoze-Joint/Ball-Valves-/_i.html?_fsub=372961319&_sid=920070059&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
This valve has been in this car 10+ years. It gets turned on in winter (about 3 months in Brisbane) and turned off for the rest of the year. I've never experienced any issues with the heater or cooling system. But I do open the valve when changing / bleeding coolant.
I did wire up a micro switch to the temperature lever in the centre console, so that the switch activates when the temp lever is pushed fully to the cold position. You can see the yellow wire that comes from the switch in the photo. I was going to fit a vacuum solenoid and Commodore heater tap - but I never got around to it. The manual tap isn't that hard to live with in this climate.
Attachments
2 of my parts cars have taps, I think one is a vacuum commadore tap. I'm just going to use a manual one like Robs. I really don't think it'll make a huge difference. What I will do is put in the Tarago solenoid Robmac sent me years ago. I was going to fit it as soon as I need to fix the A/C ................ And I'll be buggered if it hasnt' worked perfectly for years (no bad given it's 30+ year old A/C parts used). I'm thinking the solenoid will have to go under the bonnet where the copper pipes "T" off and head down too the back of the car. I'll use the rear units thermostat that I never fitted to drive the solenoid.
If you fit a rear unit without a solenoid, you will find it turns too a solid lump of ice in hot humid 40+ degree weather. If you then turn the A/C off it'll dump a bucket of water out the rear unit onto the ground and start working again.... Your wife will get very stressed when she sees what appears to be 20litres of water pouring onto the ground from the car and running down the streets drain.
seeya,
Shane L.
If you fit a rear unit without a solenoid, you will find it turns too a solid lump of ice in hot humid 40+ degree weather. If you then turn the A/C off it'll dump a bucket of water out the rear unit onto the ground and start working again.... Your wife will get very stressed when she sees what appears to be 20litres of water pouring onto the ground from the car and running down the streets drain.
seeya,
Shane L.
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I took a run to Melbourne last Wednesday, with the temperature over 40+C in full sun. I set out from Albury to Wodonga with the A/C on and had to open the windows because it was too hot to sit in with the A/C on. Then I discovered I had turned the manual heater tap the wrong way (cable operated into the cabin). After this was rectified the single standard unit, with 134a gas seemed adequate, even on the second notch on the fan. It was not cold, by any stretch of the imagination, but I was not uncomfortable, bearing in mind I am pretty tolerant of heat. Forty plus days don't worry me much, even when working outside in them. But I like a comfortable car temperature.
I got the windows tinted with 3M Crystaline ceramic tint CR 50 (56% Total Solar Energy Rejection; 97% infra red rejection; 44% glare reduction; and not very dark) on the side windows and CR 70 on the rear window(still 97% infrared rejection, but lighter tint), and it certainly made a big difference. A Window Tinter in Baccus Marsh did it and charged me too much, because he knew no one else was carrying the tint, since it is too expensive to hold rolls of it around for the few people who ask for it.
The trip back to Albury was a hot blustery 40+ C wind in full sun, but was noticeably more comfortable with the tinting done.
The insulation (thanks Shane for the clue to this) must also be doing some of the work, and makes the car noticeably quieter. Now I can hear all the wind noise around the pillars and door seals! So there is another job. But I am pretty happy with the standard A/C now. So I suppose you can spend the money on a second rear A/C, or you can work on making the standard system work better. Next I will take your collective advice and change to HiChill, when I gas it next (there is a leak in the compressor).
the other issue I dealt with (which I understand has been discussed here before) is the plastic "scoop" on the bonnet ventilation intake. The tiny little inlet area is not adequate at all. I could have just taken it off, but instead I cut some more holes in the top part of it. With the fan on the 3rd notch it is still sucking furiously through the available holes. So in standard form it will cut the total airflow back considerably I think.
I suppose I should open a new thread covering the whole restoration job to this car, but I am pretty happy with it. I am slowly working through a long list of jobs. I need a volunteer to ride in the boot and check how much different it is now that it is all insulated? And I may test the new sound system and woofer I installed, at the same time..... tehehe!
I got the windows tinted with 3M Crystaline ceramic tint CR 50 (56% Total Solar Energy Rejection; 97% infra red rejection; 44% glare reduction; and not very dark) on the side windows and CR 70 on the rear window(still 97% infrared rejection, but lighter tint), and it certainly made a big difference. A Window Tinter in Baccus Marsh did it and charged me too much, because he knew no one else was carrying the tint, since it is too expensive to hold rolls of it around for the few people who ask for it.
The trip back to Albury was a hot blustery 40+ C wind in full sun, but was noticeably more comfortable with the tinting done.
The insulation (thanks Shane for the clue to this) must also be doing some of the work, and makes the car noticeably quieter. Now I can hear all the wind noise around the pillars and door seals! So there is another job. But I am pretty happy with the standard A/C now. So I suppose you can spend the money on a second rear A/C, or you can work on making the standard system work better. Next I will take your collective advice and change to HiChill, when I gas it next (there is a leak in the compressor).
the other issue I dealt with (which I understand has been discussed here before) is the plastic "scoop" on the bonnet ventilation intake. The tiny little inlet area is not adequate at all. I could have just taken it off, but instead I cut some more holes in the top part of it. With the fan on the 3rd notch it is still sucking furiously through the available holes. So in standard form it will cut the total airflow back considerably I think.
I suppose I should open a new thread covering the whole restoration job to this car, but I am pretty happy with it. I am slowly working through a long list of jobs. I need a volunteer to ride in the boot and check how much different it is now that it is all insulated? And I may test the new sound system and woofer I installed, at the same time..... tehehe!
How to wire in a Trinary A/C Pressure Switch?
I have just the hi/low pressure sender & want to replace it with a trinary switch. Does anyone have instructions on how to wire it in please? The heavy power load is interfering with the c-matic. I have to rectify a couple of leaks so I have an opportunity to do so. Many thanks (another alternator in due course also)
I have just the hi/low pressure sender & want to replace it with a trinary switch. Does anyone have instructions on how to wire it in please? The heavy power load is interfering with the c-matic. I have to rectify a couple of leaks so I have an opportunity to do so. Many thanks (another alternator in due course also)
Just buy some double spade connectors and plonk them on the thermal switch in the side tank of the radiator. Then just plug both the wires that were there and the wires from the trinary switch as well (or fit a double spade connector to the ends of the trinary switch leads)
That means both fans will run in parallel or high speed when either the AC head pressure is high or coolant temp is high. Make sure your alternator is up to the job because on warm days the fans will be running at high speed most of the time. Also you could fit a relay to feed the C-matic solenoid which will improve things there as well and you'll already have the soldering iron warmed up.
That means both fans will run in parallel or high speed when either the AC head pressure is high or coolant temp is high. Make sure your alternator is up to the job because on warm days the fans will be running at high speed most of the time. Also you could fit a relay to feed the C-matic solenoid which will improve things there as well and you'll already have the soldering iron warmed up.
Thanks Greg. So how do I change the fan speed to run on low as the default setting when the a/c is turned on? The two speed sensor behind radiator can be wired into for increased speed as you described.