Bungling Amateurs, C4 HDI injector, please help

[CXVingtCinq]

Fantastic job under somewhat trying circumstances Bob. Congratulations.

Up until just before Christmas I'd say that "clean room" would have been perfectly safe as it hadn't rained for months up this way until then.! Your wife should have shown more faith in you. You have it fixed well before school goes back. Probably good idea to remind her not to go out in the paddock in this one. Or will that jeopardise dinner.?

 

[Buttercup]

Indeed Peter,
I've just come in after the final pre-school check. She's all ready to go.... with 4 days spare.

I've changed the oil & filter.
I put back all the plastic, except the shredded under tray. 2mm plastic held on with a few 6mm screws is no match for dirt roads with raised gravel between the wheel tracks, and paddock rocks.
Can anyone tell me of adverse consequences of running without the tray?
I expect the tray is needed to get correct air flow, and reduce air recycling by the fan when stopped (with engine running).
Fortunately this car almost never sits in traffic.
Out of 270,000km, I reckon 269,500 would be in top gear.

During the reassembly I ran it a few times, and initially got a few engine management warnings (speed control & anti pollution) but these have all gone away.
The key plip failed again... If I buy bulk 1620 batteries, and put a new one in every Sunday evening.... what will it cost for a year?

It sounds good for an old-ish diesel, no fumes, no drips......

Aircon is rather weak & patchy, so I guess I'll get it regassed.
I've never had aircon service before.... any tips?

Pretty satisfied..... specially after the experts said "you can't put those injectors back together" "it just won't work".

Bungling Amateur Bob

 

[GreenBlood]

Can anyone tell me of adverse consequences of running without the tray?
I expect the tray is needed to get correct air flow, and reduce air recycling by the fan when stopped (with engine running).


Pretty satisfied..... specially after the experts said "you can't put those injectors back together" "it just won't work".

Bungling Amateur Bob

Super human Bob,
I think you may be a little modest, I'm sure you brought much of your skill-set and knowledge together for this project - not for the faint hearted that's for sure.

For what it's worth, we had run our C5 for over 6 months in heavy traffic without the plastic undertray without overheating problems. It's been replaced now as at speed I found it a bit noisy, the side lower plastic bumper was setting up a wooba wooba

Cheers
Chris

 

[Buttercup]

......... the side lower plastic bumper was setting up a wooba wooba

Cheers
Chris

Is that technical term, referring to some form of aerodynamic instability?
I couldn't find it in my engineering text book. Perhaps it is a Citroen specific thing?

BAB

 

[SLC206]

I think the main function of the plastic under tray on the HDi is to reduce cabin noise, oddly enough.

 

[GreenBlood]

Is that technical term, referring to some form of aerodynamic instability?
I couldn't find it in my engineering text book. Perhaps it is a Citroen specific thing?

BAB

How would you describe the sound of a returning boomerang? Wooba wooba will make the Australian dictionary next year much like 'Captain's call' did this year :jiggy:

Wooba Wooba: According to Urban Dictionary
Urban Dictionary: wooba wooba
A social activity which involves the nuzzling of one's nose between a ladies breasts and the vigorous shaking of one's head while loudly vocalizing the mating call of "wooba wooba".

Yeah, that noise, very disturbing when driving :drivin:

Cheers
Chris

 

[seasink]

I reckon it comes from the trembling lip of a poor stunned basta*d who opened an injector in a paddock. Listen hard, because you won't ever hear it again.

Buttercup's been very fortunate.

 

[Buttercup]

I reckon it comes from the trembling lip of a poor stunned basta*d who opened an injector in a paddock. Listen hard, because you won't ever hear it again.

Buttercup's been very fortunate.

Well yes and no!

Yes, I was fortunate to find the Ukrainian youtube that briefly showed the Bosch sectional view.... and the ball.

However...... NO!
Living here, 50km from town for 35 years now, I've had to develop some skills, and equip myself with some multipurpose tools.
I can't justify driving to town to get a bolt, or an O-ring, or an allen key.
Probably the best skill is working out another way of doing any particular task, with what I have on hand.

This injector was not really the challenge you might think. My lip doesn't tremble because of bits of machines.
Bits of machines are my life.

At 14, I made a new ratchet pawl for the winding mechanism of a fob watch my Great Aunt had given me. That was a far bigger challenge, given the lack of experience and the lack of tools. That watch still winds and runs. That's fortunate.

My first car was a bigger challenge. In 1978 (aged 21) I bought a $200 '63 ID19, with rust and a tooth off in the gearbox. I learnt to weld. I bought a $50 parts car which had bigger issues including a diff bearing failure.
I pulled both gearboxes apart on the dining table, lined up all the bits, and picked each best bit from the 2 available. I ended up with a mis-matched crown wheel & pinion. The experts said "You can't do that, it won't work". It did work. That was fortunate.

After that I went to my first NSW CCC meeting, and asked the assembled authorities how hard is it to rebuild an engine, as mine was in need of rings, and timing chain, and I had never worked on anything bigger than a 10cc model plane motor.
They said "its not too hard, have you got any tools, a manual ?"
I said "yeah, I've just rebuilt the gearbox, but surely the engine is trickier?"
Their jaws hit the floor.
We did over 100,000km in that car. That was fortunate.

While driving in outback Queensland in that ID19 in 1979, at night, I hit an ant mound in the middle of the track. All the ant mounds were knocked off at Landcruiser axle(diff) height. The bump knocked a wedge of brittle alloy up in the bottom of the sump. I was 150km from anywhere. Next morning I cleaned it up , patched it with a bit of cloth and Plastibond, refilled the oil, and kept going.
It was very fortunate that my toolkit included Plastibond..... but that was really "being prepared".

A short interval of 36 years here, during which I accumulated tools, processes, skills and experience.

Perhaps the most technical part of this injector job was making the tools.
How would you find or make a hollow 10mm allen key?
How would you beg borrow or buy a 17 x 1.0 high tensile thread to pull the injector ?
How would you hold the 1.5mm ball and its 2mm cap and a spring in place while you fit the solenoid ?

Not much bravery or luck needed here.

Just bush cunning, and 45 years experience pulling stuff apart and usually getting it together again.

Sorry if this sounds a bit boastful... its not intended to be so.
Its just that I often find that people really don't know what goes into the skills of a bush mechanic.
I fix stuff every day for farmers, industry, aircraft and cars. Mostly the owners of the stuff have no idea of whats really involved.

Bob

 

[seasink]

I do understand. My old man once farmed, and made things work in the paddock too. My mum was a grazing family's daughter from the NW. I inherited a ton of obscure bits and pieces that every now and again I realise what job they were made for. Even so, an early lesson from him was about HP diesel gear. He probably learned the hard way.

Living in Sydney has changed too - I have an hour's drive to get anything, so a rummage in Dad's old stuff is called for. Sadly nothing is ever metric.

 

[exvet]

Buttercup, I've just read this whole saga with open mouthed admiration.
It's the surgeons and scientists of this world that get the accolades, but what you have achieved is, in my (surgically trained) opinion, the equivalent of a heart transplant or brain surgery.
We have ONE thing in common----most of my surgery was carried out in paddocks!
Congratulations, and I hope SWMBO gives you an early mark!

 

[JohnW]

Very impressive Bob. Very. You do need well above average "smarts" and a good systematic, patient approach, so from the outside we can say you are over-modest.

Good stuff, Plastibond....

 

[Buttercup]

................ so a rummage in Dad's old stuff is called for. Sadly nothing is ever metric.

Did I mention that the lathe I used to cut the 17 x 1.0 thread, is english, and calibrated in thou......
juggling metric and imperial is something I do many times a day, almost without thought.

 

[JohnW]

I understand that one well. 25.4, 0.3048 etc! I work in underground water, and half the old text books are in feet, inches, gallons and many in US gallons. We went metric in about 1970 but you wouldn't know it sometimes.... Cubic metres per day per metre converted from US gallons per day per foot is a good one! Wish I had your lathe skills but they weren't in my geology course and I've never quite plucked up the courage or had the regular need to buy one.

 

[pottsy]

Bob. Go and see the Missus for an elephant stamp and a couple of gold stars! You've earned them!

It's great to know there are blokes like you (and me, I modestly add) who are prepared to have a go in whatever environment they have. I'm constantly in awe of the skills many people have gained over decades of tinkering. I'd like to think I have a few myself, but I dips me lid to you.

Skills such as these are most often acquired through economical necessity, which is how I learned to rebuild engines and gearboxes all those years ago. My Austin A30 was all I could afford, and there were simply no dollars left over for paying a Guru to fix it when it went wrong.

I'm quietly proud of the fact that a lot of the skills passed on to me by my father and his generation of mates have now been passed on to my three sons. None of those mates, or Dad for that matter, had any kind of mechanical qulaifications, but, with an inquiring mind, dexterous hands and a few square inches of bench room there is nothing that can't be attempted.

Sure, a clean room would be nice, and for mass production with guarantees of reliability, and the attendant liabilities imposed upon the world these days, the manufacturers and paid repairers can call the shots. But as you so eloquently have shown, such facilities are not normally available in the outskirts of civilisation such as where you lurk. (And to be fair, anywhere that has a population of Citroens cannot be called uncivilised!)

More power to your creative juices, and well done!

Cheers, Pottsy.

 

[Buttercup]

Don't hold back John,
Once you have a lathe, you very quickly find that every job needs it. The skills come with making lots of mistakes.
The same goes for a Mig or Tig, and a pan brake.

Probably the best, first workshop tool is however the humble 5" angle grinder. The modern 1.0 or 1.2 cutting discs are amazingly good. With a cutting disc, a grinding disc, a flapwheel sanding disc, a diamond masonry disc..... you can tackle almost anything.
I've had Makita cordless stuff for a few years, including angle grinders. I usually keep one set up with a cutting disc, another with grinding, a third with flapwheel.
Recently I upgraded to the new brushless 5" angle grinder. Wow, what a tool, amazing power and battery life.
A beautifully designed one hand tool, I reckon I could do dentistry with it.

A cordless Dremel is a close second, for small stuff (smaller than teeth that is).

Another recent purchase is a spot welder.... ready for D structural stuff... But I've been a bit busy to get on with that yet.

Bob

 

[JohnW]

Yes, you're right and I endorse Pottsy's comments.

I've just had a great Sunday afternoon with my angle grinder and Dremel (and a half-round file, a "proper" hand tool) converting a CX timing chain cover into finger protection from the fan of a 6V alternator that I've been fitted to the 1951 Renault 4CV. I'm modestly proud of the outcome, although way behind the level of your exercises!

 

[Buttercup]

A very neat job John.

I noticed the crimp terminals that you used on the wiring. These "automotive" terminals are only satisfactory if you fit a covering shrink sleeve that extends say 12mm along the wire.

I've seen many (I'm sure you have too) of these with the wire broken off, from vibration focused at the point where the wire is stripped as it enters the crimp. To prevent this a shrink sleeve supports the wire/crimp junction.

Better still is to use double crimped terminals like these

Which have one crimp to the conductor, another for the insulation. You do need to buy the proper crimping plier to do this, but Gee its worth it.

Another good measure is to bundle all the wires in a location together into a local loom. The short individual wires going to the terminals brace each other against movement, like a tripod.

On a good Raid 2CV there would be no wires crimped like those in your pic.

Regards,

Bob

 

[JoBo]

Aircon is rather weak & patchy, so I guess I'll get it regassed.
I've never had aircon service before.... any tips?

Bungling Amateur Bob

With your skills and approach you can fix and regas the aircon for sure. Might even use hydrocarbon as a/c gas. Rig up an old fridge compressor as a vac.

 

[David S]

... a spot welder.... ready for D structural stuff...

Yes, very useful and neat. The single phase 240V type are OK for light sheet provided you set it up correctly and use test strips to ensure it only comes apart by pulling one side of the weld out of the other sheet. A good looking spot weld can be very poor and can just fall apart, so the DIY spot welder could be a real danger to all who ride in the repaired car subsequently. Single-sided spot welding tools (often attach to a stick unit) should not be trusted for anything important (or anything actually. Just junk.), yet there will be people out there trying to use these kits for structural car repairs.:crazy: For thicker sheet it's easy to quickly reach the limit of the welder in terms of spot size and duty cycle with single phase units. For anything seriously structural or difficult to get at, TIG/MIG plug welding is still the smart choice. The number of arm configurations you need can also be an expensive problem. If you only work with mild steel, then it's not as technically difficult to get right but repairing modern car body structural components is a different game requiring very expensive spot welders. Many panels shops will have been forced to upgrade to newer welders to deal with the heat treated steels, so there would be some very good 3 phase welders that are perfect for mild steel now gathering dust in corners.

 

[robmac]

A very neat job John.

I noticed the crimp terminals that you used on the wiring. These "automotive" terminals are only satisfactory if you fit a covering shrink sleeve that extends say 12mm along the wire.

I've seen many (I'm sure you have too) of these with the wire broken off, from vibration focused at the point where the wire is stripped as it enters the crimp. To prevent this a shrink sleeve supports the wire/crimp junction.

Better still is to use double crimped terminals like theseView attachment 79772View attachment 79773

Which have one crimp to the conductor, another for the insulation. You do need to buy the proper crimping plier to do this, but Gee its worth it.

Another good measure is to bundle all the wires in a location together into a local loom. The short individual wires going to the terminals brace each other against movement, like a tripod.

On a good Raid 2CV there would be no wires crimped like those in your pic.

Regards,

Bob

I would use nothing but lugs certified to Au- Nz standards the look like this
With a full crimp tunnel and copper plating



They must be set with ratchet crimp tool
like this



Ideally insert some lanolin up the bore of the lug before crimping.

Apply some adhesive lined heavy duty heat shrink as strain relief.

I''ve never had much long term success with the fold over style "crimp" lugs.