Autoclima Aircon 1974 DS 23 Au Delivery

J

JAJEA

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Hi,
Could anybody confirm that the Autoclima air con unit in our Ds was infact "factory fitted"?

That is, did Citroen actually used the Italian Autoclima unit as OEM gear (in the 70's) - I have an argument to settle.

JAJEA (John)

PS: First ever Thread - trust I'm done it right.
 
Autoclima was/is an italian company that a large range of universal auto evaporator units.

They usually consist of a centre section with a few louvres and two end sections. The end sections are telescopic duct and make the ends adjustable to suit the particular vehicle.

They were a very popular add on kit for European cars when aircon was not standard fitment.

I would think the unit was fitted perhaps by the dealer prior to sale. It was almost certainly fitted in OZ.

They are good unit. The fan motor bushes clag out in time and use. The plastics can get degraded in the Sun. They were f%&^$# to mount because of their size and stretch across the dash and are often poorly mounted and rattle again the dash.
 
Thank you Robmac,

You have described the fitting of it (f%&^$#) beautifully and confirmed my belief that what I have is an aftermarket unit.

I could not imagine Citroen putting out such a product (total installation package that is).

Nevertheless, if anybody has a factory fitted Aircon to their 1974 DS 23, I would appreciate advice as to make.
 
JAJEA said:
Thank you Robmac,

You have described the fitting of it (f%&^$#) beautifully and confirmed my belief that what I have is an aftermarket unit.

I could not imagine Citroen putting out such a product (total installation package that is).

Nevertheless, if anybody has a factory fitted Aircon to their 1974 DS 23, I would appreciate advice as to make.
Click to expand...

This is the aftermarket Autoclima ready to go back back in my car.

attachment.php


I have these reproduction panels (stainless steel) available for anyone interested :)

attachment.php


This is the Citroen factory unit = very rare, we do have a few cars in Australia with these units, I've only ever seen various components for sale, never a complete system. Note the eyeball side vents, much more integrated than the aftermarket Autoclima.

clim3.jpg


Cheers
Chris
 
And another shot of that pesky LHD BVM brake release lever. It's a cunning bugger of a thing :D
 
Thank you Chris, you have confirmed undoubtedly that I have an aftermarket installation.

And, love the photo of your dash on the bed! My wife picked it up / noticed it - made me feel good.

By the by, I've noticed a few LHD vehicles around; what's the story now days? My understanding goes back decades when they were not allowed into the country without hard to get permits.

Best regards,

John
 
JAJEA said:
Thank you Chris, you have confirmed undoubtedly that I have an aftermarket installation.

And, love the photo of your dash on the bed! My wife picked it up / noticed it - made me feel good.

By the by, I've noticed a few LHD vehicles around; what's the story now days? My understanding goes back decades when they were not allowed into the country without hard to get permits.

Best regards,

John
Click to expand...

hahaha, that's actually a desk in my daughter's bedroom (Miss GB is currently OS). In our house if there is a space that is not being used you'll find parts of my car maybe with the exception of the kitchen, I get told off if I leave car parts in the kitchen :nownow: :deal: :nownow: :clown:

Cheers
Chris
 
John, It was my experience with a DS 23 injection auto Pallas in the early 80s that the Autoclima product lacked quality. The fan motors on the twin condensers failed, in one case the nylon moulding that held the armature brushes actually melted, while the in cabin fans were plain vibratory. When working it did spit small chunks of ice out, but the actual service times were limited by the cracking of the rather cobbled up mounting plates that support the compressor ( cracked from metal fatigue ).. down on the bell housing, and the frequent replacements of the camshaft pulley that wasn't man enough to withstand the sudden clutching loads of the york type reciprocating piston compressor. Pressed pulleys for the belts just rivetted to the splined flange. It is necessary to beef up the water pump shaft bearings too because of the extra load. Modern practice should see that style of compressor replaced with a multi cylinder swash plate design or even a rotary if you can get one. I actually made some holes in the under dash plastic distribution box to get some cold air down into the footwells to counteract the heat sink. This side of a CX there isn't a car more more in need of a good air con and less able to drive one. There have been attempts to rearrange the waterpump/ alternator placements in order to locate and drive an A/C compressor, i recall someone using an electric waterpump to free up some underbonnet space. No doubt others will comment.
 
fritzelhund said:
John, It was my experience with a DS 23 injection auto Pallas in the early 80s that the Autoclima product lacked quality. The fan motors on the twin condensers failed, in one case the nylon moulding that held the armature brushes actually melted, while the in cabin fans were plain vibratory. When working it did spit small chunks of ice out, but the actual service times were limited by the cracking of the rather cobbled up mounting plates that support the compressor ( cracked from metal fatigue ).. down on the bell housing, and the frequent replacements of the camshaft pulley that wasn't man enough to withstand the sudden clutching loads of the york type reciprocating piston compressor. Pressed pulleys for the belts just rivetted to the splined flange. It is necessary to beef up the water pump shaft bearings too because of the extra load. Modern practice should see that style of compressor replaced with a multi cylinder swash plate design or even a rotary if you can get one. I actually made some holes in the under dash plastic distribution box to get some cold air down into the footwells to counteract the heat sink. This side of a CX there isn't a car more more in need of a good air con and less able to drive one. There have been attempts to rearrange the waterpump/ alternator placements in order to locate and drive an A/C compressor, i recall someone using an electric waterpump to free up some underbonnet space. No doubt others will comment.
Click to expand...

I can only reiterate what I have said many time on this forum, the York compressor in your car would no doubt have contributed to most of your woes. The Sanden must be far more efficient and far less stressful on the components that failed on your 23, I've not had any issues with component failure. The set-up in my car is better than the Xsara I'm using as a daily drive until I get my D back on the road.

The evaporators can be noisy (mine is) but replacements can be had quite cheaply - Speedyair have a unit that will just about be plug and play and being 'relatively' current technology will likely provide more cooling with less noise. Given typically the youngest of these installations are now 20 years old a few upgrades can't be seen as unreasonable but fair wear and tear.

It's a shame you with the knowledge you have of the D have such negative memories of your experience with them, once I have mine back on the road you and I are going for a drive, you'll be wanting to upgrade your C5 to a nice D :)

Cheers
Chris
 
GreenBlood said:
I can only reiterate what I have said many time on this forum, the York compressor in your car would no doubt have contributed to most of your woes. The Sanden must be far more efficient and far less stressful on the components that failed on your 23, I've not had any issues with component failure. The set-up in my car is better than the Xsara I'm using as a daily drive until I get my D back on the road.

The evaporators can be noisy (mine is) but replacements can be had quite cheaply - Speedyair have a unit that will just about be plug and play and being 'relatively' current technology will likely provide more cooling with less noise. Given typically the youngest of these installations are now 20 years old a few upgrades can't be seen as unreasonable but fair wear and tear.

It's a shame you with the knowledge you have of the D have such negative memories of your experience with them, once I have mine back on the road you and I are going for a drive, you'll be wanting to upgrade your C5 to a nice D :)

Cheers
Chris
Click to expand...

And of course you will install twin evaporators with independent control and temperature setting. You only need two solenoid valves to do that.

Talk to me about designing the control circuit. :wink2:
 
Chris,

I don't care whose bed it was - it was a bed! I'm know as "Flat Surface Charlie" around here.

Fritzelhund,

I'm familiar with the Autoclima units in the Lancias back in the early 80's - they were not old enough to cause a problem then.

Nevertheless, I like the idea of the electric waterpump and will consider. The current compressor installation looks sound enough - driven from the oil pump - good coverage of the belt on both pulleys.

John
 
robmac said:
And of course you will install twin evaporators with independent control and temperature setting. You only need two solenoid valves to do that.

Talk to me about designing the control circuit. :wink2:
Click to expand...

Thanks Rob,
I will follow up, the idea of having a rear mounted evaporator does appeal. I've already revealed my lack of knowledge in this area so as well as the control circuit the required plumbing would be useful - whilst the car is apart knowing what piping would be required would help, what is used for the plumbing over that distance - copper?

Cheers
Chris
 
GreenBlood said:
Thanks Rob,
I will follow up, the idea of having a rear mounted evaporator does appeal. I've already revealed my lack of knowledge in this area so as well as the control circuit the required plumbing would be useful - whilst the car is apart knowing what piping would be required would help, what is used for the plumbing over that distance - copper?

Cheers
Chris
Click to expand...

I would use copper. Refrigeration copper at that. If the rear evap has flare fitting it's easy. If it has O ring you can buy adaptors.

So called "pair coil" used in household split systems would be go. I believe the lines are 3/8 and 1/2 inch. This is a standard pair coil.
Pair coil is like fig 8 cable. Except it has insulated copper pipe as the wires. I'd slip the entire pair coil insde a 50mm diameter convulated protective plastic tube. You could toss a piece of 10 core 2.5 mm multicore trailer cable in there as well.
http://www.kembla.com/kembla-pair-coil/

This link covers aircon basics and illustrates diagrammatically a twin evaporator car air system. It's a good read...
http://www.ariazone.com/manuals/Automotive Air Conditioning Training Manual.pdf
 
JAJEA said:
Nevertheless, I like the idea of the electric waterpump and will consider. The current compressor installation looks sound enough - driven from the oil pump - good coverage of the belt on both pulleys.

John
Click to expand...

John, your first priority should be to ensure your engine cooling system is not compromised, any modifications really need careful consideration. Many have tried to improve on Citroen's design and many have failed, many electric waterpumps/fans consigned to the scrap heap. This has been discussed extensively on the forum and a quick search should give plenty of good reading. The only successful modification I have seen here required extensive changes to many components not just a single component, the outcome made no provision for the fitting of airconditioning - search 'DS Cooling' and 'DS Airconditioning' for starters.

robmac said:
I would use copper. Refrigeration copper at that. If the rear evap has flare fitting it's easy. If it has O ring you can buy adaptors.

So called "pair coil" used in household split systems would be go. I believe the lines are 3/8 and 1/2 inch. This is a standard pair coil.
Pair coil is like fig 8 cable. Except it has insulated copper pipe as the wires. I'd slip the entire pair coil insde a 50mm diameter convulated protective plastic tube. You could toss a piece of 10 core 2.5 mm multicore trailer cable in there as well.
http://www.kembla.com/kembla-pair-coil/

This link covers aircon basics and illustrates diagrammatically a twin evaporator car air system. It's a good read...
http://www.ariazone.com/manuals/Automotive Air Conditioning Training Manual.pdf
Click to expand...

As always Rob great info, I've had a quick look at both links, the PDF is a beauty, the diagram for the duel evaporator set-up certainly clarifies the plumbing side. Probably still something I'd have to hand over to a professional but I may still be able to do the hack work i.e. running the required plumbing and wiring ready to be hooked into my existing system. Money is in short supply at the moment so it will be down the track but plenty of info to absorb in the meantime :)

A point you have made in the past has been to match components, does this mean fitting a larger condenser than I currently have? Likewise for the compressor?

Cheers
Chris
 
A point you have made in the past has been to match components, does this mean fitting a larger condenser than I currently have? Likewise for the compressor?
Click to expand...


I would go for a new Sanden bubble plate style compressor if the budget allows. Otherwise harvest a used compressor of a toyota tarago with dual air. The poly v belt drive may not on a Toyota may not be helpful tho.

Avoid variable displacement compressor and stick with conventional fixed.

The most important factor is evap/ condenser size. Within limits it's not too critical. I would use the largest condenser you can fit in and possibly a second small additional condenser. Condensers work OK when horizontal but need a big fan. Err on the big size in condenser design, it will only reduce high side pressures. It would be ideal if had room for the combined fan/condenser units that Speedy sell.

I'll keep my eye out for a couple of solenoid valves for the evaporators.
 
Hi Chris & Rob. I've been reading your thread with interest. I'm in the process of refurbishing (not full restoration) of a DS23 IE Pallas 5-speed. it came with Autoclima A/C but no compressor or mount. This car was factory-prepared for A/C, ie twin condensors with fans on either side of lower front, behind the bumpers which have slots for air flow. This way the cooling system is not compromised in any way. when I got the car about 15 months ago, I removed the evaporator because it was filthy with years of accumulated dust & dirt. This afternoon I disassembled as much as I could to clean it and discovered that one of the vents in the ducting has broken all 4 mounting pegs. Your comments about replacement alternatives interest me. What are they? I also want to fit a rotary compressor for all the reasons you mentioned. As I don't have a compressor mount, any help would be appreciated. looking forward to some dialogue. Cheers, Robin
 
Robin Hoffmann said:
Hi Chris & Rob. I've been reading your thread with interest. I'm in the process of refurbishing (not full restoration) of a DS23 IE Pallas 5-speed. it came with Autoclima A/C but no compressor or mount. This car was factory-prepared for A/C, ie twin condensors with fans on either side of lower front, behind the bumpers which have slots for air flow. This way the cooling system is not compromised in any way. when I got the car about 15 months ago, I removed the evaporator because it was filthy with years of accumulated dust & dirt. This afternoon I disassembled as much as I could to clean it and discovered that one of the vents in the ducting has broken all 4 mounting pegs. Your comments about replacement alternatives interest me. What are they? I also want to fit a rotary compressor for all the reasons you mentioned. As I don't have a compressor mount, any help would be appreciated. looking forward to some dialogue. Cheers, Robin
Click to expand...

What kind of compressor bracket does the engine current have installed? I'm thinking perhaps one of the York reciprocating compressor (looks like a mower engine) ?

If it's a York mount and drive kit, you can buy a an adaptor bracket to bolt up and fit a Sanden style compressor, space permitting.

Otherwise the Sanden adaptor makes a very good starting point for a custom bracket.

Ford York to Sanden Conversion Bracket & Universal Compressor Mounting bracket: Speedy Air Spares

Universal Compressor Mounting bracket: Speedy Air Spares

Of course you would need to check the compressor on your car is a York and is the same as the Ford York, AFAIK all the Yorks of same displacement all had the same mounting footprint.
 
Robin,

If you are interested, the DS 23 IE Pallas that I was querying about is still in my possession and I could provide photographs and whatever info I could muster of the Autoclima Compressor installation on this vehicle.

Regards,

John
 
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