A comparison between an electric VS ICE 'trucks', highway van towing trip. American.

[Whippet]

It is certainly looking like (for those utilising charging stations) that the energy cost per km Is going to be quite significant. The only ones who will have low EV running costs will be those whose energy usage can be catered for by home charging. Even then, unless off grid, those "savings" could very well disappear into the abyss in the coming years.

Hi.

I believe that for most commutors, that they will be charging from home. I think high capacity charging stations will only be used for longer trips, and the cost of "fuel" from those is more than from your home supply. But lets consider the cost of using a charging station. As you can see in the below worked examples, the cost of a charging station is less than half the cost of using petrol.

Currently a BEV consumes approximately 15kW per 100 km. A ICE consumes approx 9 L/100km in urban traffic.

So the cost for a ICE is 9 L x $2 = $18 per 100km

The cost for BEV is:

1. 15kW x $0.07 = $1.05 per 100km - This is the opportunity cost forgone of selling surplus solar electricty to the grid.
2. 15kW x $0.18 = $2.70 per 100km - This is my current cost of off peak electricity, so the BEV could charge while I am sleeping. This can be achieved with a simple 15A GPO. I dont believe one needs to install a charging station at home.
3. 15kW x $0.51 = $7.65 per 100km - This is from a Tesla charging station.

The average vehicle is driven 41km per day. Therefore $1.05 per 100km x 0.41 = $0.43 per day. An ICE would cost $7.38 per day. If you are in the position to charge your BEV from your surplus solar electricity during the day, this is what I referred to as "almost nothing" in post #19.

Cheers.

 

[Greenpeace]

Hi.

I believe that for most commutors, that they will be charging from home. I think high capacity charging stations will only be used for longer trips, and the cost of "fuel" from those is more than from your home supply. But lets consider the cost of using a charging station. As you can see in the below worked examples, the cost of a charging station is less than half the cost of using petrol.

Currently a BEV consumes approximately 15kW per 100 km. A ICE consumes approx 9 L/100km in urban traffic.

So the cost for a ICE is 9 L x $2 = $18 per 100km

The cost for BEV is:

1. 15kW x $0.07 = $1.05 per 100km - This is the opportunity cost forgone of selling surplus solar electricty to the grid.
2. 15kW x $0.18 = $2.70 per 100km - This is my current cost of off peak electricity, so the BEV could charge while I am sleeping. This can be achieved with a simple 15A GPO. I dont believe one needs to install a charging station at home.
3. 15kW x $0.51 = $7.65 per 100km - This is from a Tesla charging station.

The average vehicle is driven 41km per day. Therefore $1.05 per 100km x 0.41 = $0.43 per day. An ICE would cost $7.38 per day. If you are in the position to charge your BEV from your surplus solar electricity during the day, this is what I referred to as "almost nothing" in post #19.

Cheers.

Is the expenditure in setting up the home charging station factored into the "savings" in any way? This can be several thousand dollars for some level 2 installations.

 

[Whippet]

Hi.

No I have only included the "fuel" costs in these calculations.

I agree that a home chargeing terminal/station can be in the thousands to supply and install, and unless you need complicated switching between home solar PV and mains, they are not needed.

It is my opinion that if you can charge a BEV overnight on off peak power, then you would only need a 15 Amp GPO. As you can see you don't even need a home solar PV system.

Keep it simple and keep your cash in your pocket.

Cheers.

 

[Greenpeace]

Yet the Ford F250 was subject to a court action by Australian owners over chassis failures.

Do you have a link to that court action. I can't find any references to endemic F Series chassis failure (anywhere). Was it this shape F Series or the next?

 

[Russell Hall]

Canadian built cars. Bulka bags being roughly loaded broke the chassis. Was in the Weekly Times at the time. Think it was an owners class action.
Wait for a couple of years until the electricity price settles down before there can be any real comparison of running costs of an EV. Changes are happening. If we look at the EU, electricity is becoming much more expensive and in short supply. Doesn't have to happen as badly here but it could.

 

[Greenpeace]

Canadian built cars. Bulka bags being roughly loaded broke the chassis. Was in the Weekly Times at the time. Think it was an owners class action.

Oh OK so it was a one-off from abuse.

So was this F350. Owner is a tools salesman, stupidly long tow hitch/drawbar, very heavy trailer and heavy slide on camper with a fair bit of overhang. I believe his court case failed then he bought an F450 put all the same shit on it and broke it too. Interestingly the F450s DRW weight is 400lbs LESS than an F350s so not sure what he was thinking there?
Those in the know estimate this setup to be about 2000lb above the vehicle's rear axle rating. Then it broke, go figure. Note that this is a dual cab too.

 

[Kim Luck]

Law of the Jungle: If you want to carry something heavy around put it on a proper truck instead of trying to drag it around with one of those ersatz pretend ones, which is all those bloody big utes are!

 

[jaahn]

Hi.

No I have only included the "fuel" costs in these calculations.

I agree that a home chargeing terminal/station can be in the thousands to supply and install, and unless you need complicated switching between home solar PV and mains, they are not needed.

It is my opinion that if you can charge a BEV overnight on off peak power, then you would only need a 15 Amp GPO. As you can see you don't even need a home solar PV system.

Keep it simple and keep your cash in your pocket.

Cheers.

Hi
I do not have a EV(I wish !) but i have had one here a twice on loan and charged them both using a standard 15A power point near my driveway. They were charged up over night OK. So where is the difficulty with that.
At my sisters block of flats, several people wanted a power point near their parking spots. They did not install a fancy expensive charging station. They just fitted separate 15a power points on a metered and switchable circuit for those places. Just standard electricians work. I believe they are happy enough and the building system accomodated them OK.
Jaahn

 

[Greenpeace]

My 65 F250 has a braked towing capacity of 5200lbs, so not even 2.5t. It does have a carrying capacity of 3800lbs, around 1700kg however. A look under it compared to a modern light "truck" is like chalk and cheese. I unscrupulously pinched a photo off the net as I couldn't be bothered crawling under mine (mine's a lot cleaner than this example by the way). The photo doesn't do the size of everything justice. The thin end of the chassis is still 5" deep and it is folded out of 1/4" thick steel. The spring packs are nearly 6" thick. The full floating Dana 70 axle is rated at 7000 lbs and has a 10 3/4" crown wheel. This year F250 has the same 12" DRW rear drums and hubs as the F350.
I've had two 600lb Harleys on the back, and if the suspension has dropped any, you certainly can't tell. This model F250 has 17" Firestone rims and had an optional 19" tyre/wheel combo for higher ground clearance and slightly higher load capacity.
My mate's Hilux chassis at the the thin end isn't as deep as the box chassis under my 340kg 3 wheeled Reliant yet it is rated at 3.5t? Mmmmm.

 

[Greenpeace]

Hi
I do not have a EV(I wish !) but i have had one here a twice on loan and charged them both using a standard 15A power point near my driveway. They were charged up over night OK. So where is the difficulty with that.
At my sisters block of flats, several people wanted a power point near their parking spots. They did not install a fancy expensive charging station. They just fitted separate 15a power points on a metered and switchable circuit for those places. Just standard electricians work. I believe they are happy enough and the building system accomodated them OK.
Jaahn

It's horses for courses. I leave for work at 5am, combine that with my post work sporting commitments (depending on which town I am at on the night) I don't get home until 8:30 to 9pm.
I wouldn't be too confident one of the trickle chargers will cater for my lifestyle. Someone just doing short city commutes or ducking to the shops, fine. Not everybody uses their vehicles the same, if a level 2 charger is required that cost needs to be factored in.

 

[Russell Hall]

Hi
I do not have a EV(I wish !) but i have had one here a twice on loan and charged them both using a standard 15A power point near my driveway. They were charged up over night OK. So where is the difficulty with that.
At my sisters block of flats, several people wanted a power point near their parking spots. They did not install a fancy expensive charging station. They just fitted separate 15a power points on a metered and switchable circuit for those places. Just standard electricians work. I believe they are happy enough and the building system accomodated them OK.
Jaahn

That assumes an ordered civil society. But theft of EV cables is problem in the UK and there are some well heeled suburbs in Melbourne where if thugs are interfering with the cars parked in the street the residents do not feel safe to challenge them.

 

[Whippet]

It's horses for courses. I leave for work at 5am, combine that with my post work sporting commitments (depending on which town I am at on the night) I don't get home until 8:30 to 9pm.
I wouldn't be too confident one of the trickle chargers will cater for my lifestyle. Someone just doing short city commutes or ducking to the shops, fine. Not everybody uses their vehicles the same, if a level 2 charger is required that cost needs to be factored in.

Hi.

Yes horses for courses. It seems based on your specific needs, that you will need to stay with ICE vehicles.

On a 15 Amp GPO many #vehicles can charge at the rate of 20 to 24 km per hour. So it would only take 2 hours to replenish the "fuel" used on the average 41km per day. If charged for 10 hours overnight it would add 200 to 240km range.

# Depending on the specific BEV, some cant take advantage of a 15A GPO over a 10A GPO.

Cheers.

 

[pug303]

Hi.

Yes horses for courses. It seems based on your specific needs, that you will need to stay with ICE vehicles.

On a 15 Amp GPO many #vehicles can charge at the rate of 20 to 24 km per hour. So it would only take 2 hours to replenish the "fuel" used on the average 41km per day. If charged for 10 hours overnight it would add 200 to 240km range.

# Depending on the specific BEV, some cant take advantage of a 15A GPO over a 10A GPO.

Cheers.

I usually just skim these threads for amusement, otherwise my head would hurt. Our lived experience:

. EV around town, easy charge overnight with max'm daily runs usually less than 100km, cost about $3.30/100km. It replaced a 407 hdi which would be costing around $16/100km.

. Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel as a tow wagon, try not to use it much around town but when I do around $26 per 100km, a bit better on the highway if no car trailer, a bit worse with a car on a car trailer. I can see one more ICE tow wagon update before an alternative EV or hydrogen is viable.

. Peugeot race (306s16) and rally (504) cars, considerably more than either!!

 

[Fingers]

that would be less efficient than using the diesel motor drive the car

I was thinking of a 1L engine being able to do the job rather than a 4L, and therefore being more efficient.

However, I may well be wrong

 

[Russell Hall]

All these calculations are based on a power generation system and costing that will be quite different in less than five years. It could be as advocates claim be cheaper or it could be like Europe which is an energy mess. What is certain is the present power generation system which copes by the skin of its teeth could not handle the additional demand from electrified road transport.

 

[Whippet]

Hi Russell.

I suspect that for your applications, you will need to stick with ICE vehicles and ICE traction equipment, therefore the running of a BEV won't affect you directly.

At least I have provided worked examples with stated assumptions of how I perceive the costing structure is in the current environment. People are welcome to comment as they see fit.

We can speculate as much as we like, but based on todays costs as detailed in post #41, the cost of the "fuel" for a BEV can be 1/17th the cost of petrol. That is a very significant saving, and financially very attractive to me, and I am sure in time many others. Sure not everybody will want to, or will be able to move from ICE to BEV, but there are millions in Australia who have the potential to migrate, where the BEV will be suitable for their specific application. How many will be able to or actually will, I don't know.

The other benefit which attracts me to BEV, is that unlike hydrocarbon fuels, where to a greater degree we are at the mercy of importing the majority that we consume in Australia. At least with electricity we have a better than even chance of generating it here, with slightly more certainty of supply, notwithstanding the current state of affairs. I agree that our Australian electricity generation and distribution grid is no longer suitable for task. But there is nothing I can do to change that. All I can do is to hope that the relevant authorities and the State & Federal Govt's will finally get focused onto the task and get it done. It is my personal belief that we have squandered years of getting this sorted.

I agree that there will be many changes, disruptors, politics and consumer behaviour in the future, there always is. These will affect both the cost of hydrocarbon fuels and also the cost of electricity. Which way will they move and by how much, I don't know, but if I was a betting man I would speculate in the increasing cost direction. But what do we do? Sit on our hands, wringing them in worry about what might occur? There is almost nothing that you or I can do to change these forces.

Cheers.

 

[Russell Hall]

I face an expensive choice either to run an underground mains cable to a new shearing shed or put in a large diesel generator. I favor mains power but if we had a German power pricing situation the diesel would make better sense. Fortunately I don't have to decide immediately.

 

[Whippet]

I face an expensive choice either to run an underground mains cable to a new shearing shed or put in a large diesel generator. I favor mains power but if we had a German power pricing situation the diesel would make better sense. Fortunately I don't have to decide immediately.

Hi.

Out of interest what is the kW capacity or Amperage of your mains power supply to your main buildings? I assume that you don't have three phase available, and have either 240V or 480V single phase? Maybe from a SWER line?

Shearing sheds, With electric motors on the stands running, and someone switches on the 2,400W Hecla water urn. Then the woolpress motor won't start!

Cheers.

 

[Russell Hall]

Single phase, have to get a sparky to calculate the drop on a 200 metre underground line. Yes. shearing sheds are hungry things. Fifty years ago it cost a lot to put our long spur line in but I'm glad we went that way instead of a generator. At one stage after privatisation they were going to give us a generator and disconnect but now they support remote rural lines. Powercor is a lot better now. Power reliability has improved and brown outs are rare now. Anyway I've always had a vested interest in power industry politics and keep an eye on things. And I really think we're running close to the edge.

 

[Greenpeace]

Just with the charging costs quoted per 100km.
Does anyone actually measure these costs or are they just estimating based on the charger's rating X the time it was is plugged in for?
Or are people using a power consumption meter on the charger point to ensure accuracy in running cost claims?
If they are estimates it would be interesting to see if the estimates are in line with the data captured by monitoring actual usage with a power consumption meter.