75 504GL Over Heating

[pugrambo]

btw
if you are going to flush the rad and the block grab a pair of stockings and place some over the top hose and clamp it back up when you are done and at least every couple of days pull it out and clean it then put it back
you will suprised on how much junk you will catch in there and in doing so keeps it from going all the way back through your system
just don't make it too lon that it gets sucked into the pump
just cut the foot off the stocking

 

[frogs4ever]

davemcbean:

Doug,

In my experience, many 504/505 2 litre engines are like your Renault experience, very unfussy with regards to tuning, although I have struck a couple which have been like your 504. I suspect these "fussy" cars have one of the following "problems":

a)head shaved, resulting in over 9:1 compression, in which case they need richer jets. This is probably one of the reasons why the factory books recommend not shaving the head by more than 0.5mm. Hemispherical combustion chambers without a squish area are more prone to pinging at high compression ratios than engines with a squish area. The 16TS has a small "squish" area.

b)Burs on the combustion chamber. When heads are shaved you must debur the edge of the combustion chamber other wise the burs will get hot and act like glow plugs resulting in pinging.

c)partially blocked jets (which make them run a tad lean)

d)worn distributor making it hard to get accurate timing

e)too much "coke" build up resulting from being driven too gently. In other words never taking them over 5000rpm (personally I reckon this should be done atleast once a week, but it's just my opinion).

Dave

Very interesting post Dave. You've enlightenned me to some issues which are new to me and worth looking in to, as well as some which I'm already familliar with.

a) At the time of purchasing the car, about 18 months ago, I was struck by how clean the cylinder head looked compared with the rest of the motor (old and covered in gunk). So, yes, I wouldn't be surprised if the head has been off for repairs, and shaved, at some time. But judging by the (dark grey / blackish) colour of the soot in my tailpipe, I suspect the jets do not need to be any bigger in my case.

Can you please explain what is a 'squish area'? I've never come accross that term.

b) If the head has been shaved, I wouldn't be surprised if they have left 'burrs' like you mention above. That would help explain why she pings when the engine is quite hot.

c) Don't think so in my case, judging by the colour of the exhaust, but worth considering.

d) Dizzy is only a bit over 12 months old, points are in excellent condition, gap correct, mechanisms properly lubricated etc.

e) Coke build up is quite likely thanks to previous owners (old man, then female matric student). A few days after purchasing the car, I replaced the spark plugs and was astonished by the amount of furry black carbon almost obscuring the business end of the plugs, and missing chunks of metal here and there probably due to detonation. They were a sorry sight. Since then I've replaced the plugs a couple of times and they've been fine. Also since then I've been regularly driving the living daylights out of the car. I firmly subscribe to your view that a trip over 5000 RPM at least once a week is a healthy thing. I've even got the kickdown cable adjusted fairly tight so that she goes down a gear more readily, and frequently take advantage of this for overtaking and going up hills. But how long do I need to drive like this to remove years of heavy carbon build-up?

I probably should take the head off and do some deburring and decarbonisation, even if it's a bit of a pain. Dave, if I were to take the head off, do you think it would be worth pollishing the combustion chambers and valve heads at the same time? Would this prevent future carbon buildup?

<small>[ 11 September 2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: frogs4ever ]</small>

 

[pugrambo]

a fairly good decarbon can be achieved with some redex
i can recomend this to decarbon a car very well

 

[Rod Hagen]

But judging by the (dark grey / blackish) colour of the soot in my tailpipe, I suspect the jets do not need to be any bigger in my case.

I think you said you were running premium unleaded fuel in it, Doug. With unleaded you inevitably get a much "blacker" colour in your tailpipe than you would have been used to with leaded fuel, even if it is running pretty lean.

Cheers

Rod

<small>[ 11 September 2003, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>

 

[frogs4ever]

Rod Hagen:
I think you said you were running premium unleaded fuel in it, Doug. With unleaded you inevitably get a much "blacker" colour in your tailpipe than you would have been used to with leaded fuel, even if it is running pretty lean.

Rod

Looks like I've learned something else today, thanks Rod.

 

[frogs4ever]

pugrambo:
a fairly good decarbon can be achieved with some redex
i can recomend this to decarbon a car very well

I tried various different types of octane boosting / cleaning additives in the first few months after buying the car, to try to solve severe pinging and missing problems. While they did make for some temporary improvement, the benefits only lasted until the next fill with fuel. Later on I discovered that a worn out dizzy (shaft bushes shot, rotor and cap burnt) and cooling system problems were the biggest culprits. Since these faults were fixed, and a cooler grade of spark plugs inserted, the pinging now only occurs if the timing is set beyond 5 degrees BTDC, whereas before, the problems were ever-present.

 

[pugrambo]

to use redex properly pour 250ml slowly down the throat of your carby set at high idle (1500-2000rpm)
then take the car for a good run after pouring the left over amount into your tank
you will notice that while you are redexing through your carby there will be goodly amounts of blue smoke appearing at the rear end of the car
do not panic as this is the carbon bieng loosened and burned out of the engine
you will be suprised at how well the car will go after this treatment
redex used to print these instructions on the back of their bottles but haven't done so in at least the last 5 years that i know of
i have performed this treatment on every 2nd hand car i have ever purchased over the years with great results
i have even known people to remove plugs and pour redex into the cylinders and leave over night and perform the same as above the next day
i wouldn't go that far but i would do what i have explained above
the last car i did this on was a 604 and the improvement in running, idling and fuel consupmtion was very noticable
this stuff you just throw in the tank and hope for the best isn't too bad but doesn't achieve the same as the redex treatment down the throat
pity the same can't be done to FI cars

 

[davemcbean]

Rod Hagen:
I think you said you were running premium unleaded fuel in it, Doug. With unleaded you inevitably get a much "blacker" colour in your tailpipe than you would have been used to with leaded fuel, even if it is running pretty lean.

Yeah my fathers 203 runs a black exhaust ever since he changed to unleaded.

 

[Shobbz]

Firstly A huge thanks to those contributing in this thread. Sorry If I get a bit lost here, but I have had to jot notes down whilst reading the preceding posts.

USING TOO MUCH PETROL
The petrol Issue was simple. The tank was/is leaking. Put some araldite on the affected area. Hoping for the best, will see how it looks tomorrow. May be a fuel hose at the tank. I clipped the ends and put on new hose clamps. Hope! The car seems to run out of petrol at the quarter tank mark as I have found out twice this week. Even after I replaced the sender unit with a good second hand one. Maybe the dint in the fuel tank reduces capacity. The gauge in the car might be shot, I don’t know.

The petrol Pump I leaking oil. Another fun job for another time. Its had a hard life, may be time for replacement.

OVERHEATING

The Brakes at the rear Are bound slightly, so maybe many of the overheating problems stem from there, they will be fixed ASAP.

The Welsh plug at the front? Where is this? The fan is not exactly true, i.e. there is a slight forwards back movement, very slight. It does work, clutch is good as is thermo switch on the radiator.

I reverse flushed the engine and the radiator was flushed after I bought it. I like the stocking idea though.

How can I check the hoses. They don't leak? what more can go wrong?

Temp stat running? What was mean by this? I am using the normal temp gauge. I have an old gauge from the HQ downstairs with actual temperatures on it, another day.

I am using penrite coolant.

The Car is manual btw.

The regulator I am currently using is a Bosh RE55. Seems to work fine, its about a month old.

The engine is HOT, after the thermostat its really noticeable. Was running hot before thermostat though.

The 56deg I was referring to was the dwell angle. Timing advance. Is this the timing mark, that u check with the flashing light? I always set that to be straight up. I have no timing plate I once used the light bulb attached to the dizzy, turn until light goes out trick. That was many moons ago.

The dizzy has seen better days and there is some movement on the cylinder, prolly making the jump to electronic if I get the chance. Like points, but not a lot of luck atm.

Redex in the carbie? I like. Not sure how I would do this but worth a shot. Carbon build up. I can assure u that it left the building long ago. Car not driven hard, but not with a soft touch either. Hooning in style perhaps.

The car belonged t my parents who took good car of it, but let problems happen then fixed and were more happy to work around them if the car still went. Good care, just not regular enough. Has been going well for the last say 5 years. I just got the car, at a time when work was to be done. Parents got an Astra, I got a nice car that needed some work. At least I know its history for the past 15 years though.

Thanks again

James

 

[ade]

Have you considered the overheating problem might be solved by 'anger managment'? Apparently there are Peugeot counsellors that offer the service these days at a reasonable price.

 

[Rod Hagen]

Shobbz:
Firstly A huge thanks to those contributing in this thread. Sorry If I get a bit lost here, but I have had to jot notes down whilst reading the preceding posts.

USING TOO MUCH PETROL
The petrol Issue was simple. The tank was/is leaking. Put some araldite on the affected area. Hoping for the best, will see how it looks tomorrow. May be a fuel hose at the tank. I clipped the ends and put on new hose clamps. Hope! The car seems to run out of petrol at the quarter tank mark as I have found out twice this week. Even after I replaced the sender unit with a good second hand one. Maybe the dint in the fuel tank reduces capacity. The gauge in the car might be shot, I don’t know.

The petrol Pump I leaking oil. Another fun job for another time. Its had a hard life, may be time for replacement.

OVERHEATING

The Brakes at the rear Are bound slightly, so maybe many of the overheating problems stem from there, they will be fixed ASAP.

You should probably not worry about the "overheating" issue until this is resolved, james, unless you are boiling over.

The Welsh plug at the front? Where is this?

You have to remove the waterpump to find it. see above.

The fan is not exactly true, i.e. there is a slight forwards back movement, very slight. It does work, clutch is good as is thermo switch on the radiator.

Does the pump leak any fluid. This can be hard to see, because it drips down under the pulley and evaporates quickly if the engine is HOT. If it does, replace it now, rather than having a total failure far from home, or , worse, roasting the engine completely.

How can I check the hoses. They don't leak? what more can go wrong?

How "soft" do they feel? For a good rule of thumb, replace them every five years. If in doubt, replace them anyway and keep the old one as a spare. You should always have spare hoses anyway, and its mad to have the "old" one in the car and the "new" one in the boot.

Temp stat running? What was mean by this? I am using the normal temp gauge. I have an old gauge from the HQ downstairs with actual temperatures on it, another day.

The calibrations on the HQ gauge won't match those from the 504 temperature sender unit anyway, James. Save that "other day" for something more useful.

I am using penrite coolant.

That's fine.

The Car is manual btw.

Sorry James, don't know where I got the idea it was an auto.

The regulator I am currently using is a Bosh RE55. Seems to work fine, its about a month old.

That's the right regulator, from memory, and shouldn't be an issue at that age.

The engine is HOT, after the thermostat its really noticeable. Was running hot before thermostat though.

How hot? Is it boiling over at all /needing regualar "top ups'? Hot is good , up to a point. If we subtract binding brakes we might well be operating about the right temp.

The 56deg I was referring to was the dwell angle. Timing advance. Is this the timing mark, that u check with the flashing light? I always set that to be straight up. I have no timing plate I once used the light bulb attached to the dizzy, turn until light goes out trick. That was many moons ago.

Yes, that's the one. Bummer about the timing plate. How did you decide where the engine should be when you used the "light bulb static timing"? I think you need a serious timing check. It might explain some of your other problems too.

The dizzy has seen better days and there is some movement on the cylinder, prolly making the jump to electronic if I get the chance. Like points, but not a lot of luck atm.

what do you mean "movement on the cylinder"?

Redex in the carbie? I like. Not sure how I would do this but worth a shot. Carbon build up. I can assure u that it left the building long ago. Car not driven hard, but not with a soft touch either. Hooning in style perhaps

Yes, good idea, but don't expect it to be a "cure all". Sort out the other issues as a higher priority.

The car belonged t my parents who took good car of it, but let problems happen then fixed and were more happy to work around them if the car still went. Good care, just not regular enough.

Ah, that takes me back thirty years! Bloody parents. Never really looked after my 403 properly before they gave it to me! Owned it from new , too. Wouldn't have known a big end from a spark plug in their case. Conned by ordinary pay for service mechanics all too easily I'm afraid. We (current generation parents) ought to know better! Mind you, I was immensely grateful for the gift of the car at the time. Damn site better than the Morris Majors and clapped out Falcons that most of my mates received!

Has been going well for the last say 5 years. I just got the car, at a time when work was to be done. Parents got an Astra, I got a nice car that needed some work. At least I know its history for the past 15 years though.

And once its sorted it will have ten times the character, five times the ability and five times the panache of the Astra. They'll probably want it back then. wink

Cheers

Rod

<small>[ 11 September 2003, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>

 

[davemcbean]

frogs4ever:
Can you please explain what is a 'squish area'?

I've never come accross that term.
I probably should take the head off and do some deburring and decarbonisation, even if it's a bit of a pain. Dave, if I were to take the head off, do you think it would be worth pollishing the combustion chambers and valve heads at the same time? Would this prevent future carbon buildup?

A "squish" or "quench" area is a flat spot level with the head face which sticks out into the combustion chamber. They are usually oppostie the spark plug. The purpose is that when the piston gets near the top of its stroke the air is "squished" by the piston and this area towards the spark plug clreating turbulence and thorough fuel/air mixing. This ensures that when the mixture starts to burn it does so in an even controlled manner, minimising the chance of sudden explosions (pinging).

You can use a half round file to take the burrs off the combustion chamber but I've recently started to use a "flapper" wheel which is a little wheel with flaps of emery cloth on it which you stick on a die grinder or small drill. This works a treat.

I've never bother polishing the combustion chamber or valve faces and I never get much carbon build up, but I do give my engine heaps or stick.

I have read that highly polished chambers can prevent carbon build up, so it's probably not a bad idea, especially on an auto, but I really can't say whether it's worth while bothering to go to that trouble or not.

You've done the right thing going to colder plugs.

Dave

 

[Shobbz]

The Brakes will hopefully be done tommorrow, if not by the weekend

I will check to see if the waterpump is leaking, not sure to be honest.

The pipes are more than 5 years old. They look okay though? Should I be looking for more?

The HQ tempguage is a smith's guage and has its own sender unit.

The light check, is when you connect a bulb from the ht point on the dizzy and the battery ground. Turn the dizzy around until the light goes out. I thinks this is how the advance is set??????

There is movement in the dizzy cyclinder where it goes into the engine. That cyclinder moves around. Not the bottom cog thing but the actual rod down the centre of the dizzy.

Dad did most of the work on the car himself for all the time we had the car. Maintence has not been so regular in the last couple of years. Now i endevour to do most of it myself. Its a learning experience, one that hopefully culminates in a working relaible car, that does 1-100 in ~5sec.

hahahahhah hahahahha

thanks

James

 

[Rod Hagen]

Shobbz
[QB]
The pipes are more than 5 years old. They look okay though? Should I be looking for more?

See what the bottom one feels like. You can also watch it as you rev the engine hard. If it constricts much then replace it. The outside of the pipe doesn't give away much.

The HQ tempguage is a smith's guage and has its own sender unit.

Shoudl work , then, if you have somewhere to attach it, but sender threads are likely to be different.

The light check, is when you connect a bulb from the ht point on the dizzy and the battery ground. Turn the dizzy around until the light goes out. I thinks this is how the advance is set??????

Yes, that's right, but you need to have some way of "setting" the position of the engine at the same time (rod in timing hole, alignement of timing marks on pulley etc). How did you do it?

There is movement in the dizzy cyclinder where it goes into the engine. That cyclinder moves around. Not the bottom cog thing but the actual rod down the centre of the dizzy.

Do you mean the body of the dissy itself moves, James? If so, this is not good. The bolt in the locking collar should hold it in place. If it can move then you can't really set timing properly for any length of time.

Dad did most of the work on the car himself for all the time we had the car. Maintence has not been so regular in the last couple of years. Now i endevour to do most of it myself. Its a learning experience, one that hopefully culminates in a working relaible car, that does 1-100 in ~5sec.

Its the best way to learn, James

Cheers

Rod

 

[Shobbz]

Will check the hoses to see if the constrict whilst reving.

I use the rod in the hole. I am not sure how to set that 8deg advance though? With out a timing plate how can this be done?

thanks

James

 

[frogs4ever]

davemcbean:
A "squish" or "quench" area .....

Thanks for the info, Dave. I always suspected there was something special about that 16TS cylinder head. The willing performance combined with great fuel economy and ability to run like this for way too long between tuneups, always warmed me to that lovely engine. Very durable to, despite being very compact and light in weight. It's amazing how much abuse that motor seems to take in its stride.

Re 504 spark plugs:
A few months ago I changed from NGK BP6ES to BP7ES as an experiment in an attempt to reduce ping succeptability. It does seem to have helped, though I haven't had them out yet to see whether the self cleaning action has been sufficient with the cooler grade. What plugs do you use?

Sorry guys if my last few posts have been off topic. It's amazing where some threads end up, but it's all interesting stuff nonetheless, I hope.

cheers!

<small>[ 13 September 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: frogs4ever ]</small>

 

[davemcbean]

frogs4ever:
]What plugs do you use?

BP7ES

 

[nJm]

sorry to butt in at this late stage, but I was interested in what Dave had to say about 505 temp guages.

Since replacing a thermostat mine tends to stay around 1 notch below centre when warmed up. However in stop start traffic or sitting at idle for a while the guage will creep up to 1 notch above centre and the cooling fan kicks in. I'm sure about a year ago it used to sit at half way when warmed up, and when it got hot it would sit just below the red. Maybe this could explain the problems I am experiencing now?

I don't think I've ever seen any of the warning lights come on though, the only time the STOP light has come on while driving was due to worn out brake pads...

 

[davemcbean]

nJm:
I'm sure about a year ago it used to sit at half way when warmed up, and when it got hot it would sit just below the red.

Nick,

That can't have done your head gasket much good. I assume your temp gauge reads similar to mine, judging by the "normal" readings you're getting now. If the temp warning light didn't come on, then the bulb might be blown, or the sensor in the water pump may be no good, or there's a poor wire connection or something. Judging by the fact that the "stop" light never came on, I'd say either the sensor is no good or there's a wire/connection problem, because I would have thought that the "stop" light should come on regardless of whether the temp light bulb is blown.

Dave

<small>[ 15 September 2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>