504 Kugelfischer injection question
- Thread starter tonch504
- Start date
I have not carried out all of the checks I was going to do as yet, but I was thinking. Even it the spark was shorting in the tube, the tach would not pick it up. The inductive clip would still see the voltage.
Also, I have noticed that when I connect the tachometer inductive clip to the other HT leads they do occasionally miss a few pulses as well. I think the fault must be in the distributor or something like that. Which I guess makes more sense anyway.
Also, I have noticed that when I connect the tachometer inductive clip to the other HT leads they do occasionally miss a few pulses as well. I think the fault must be in the distributor or something like that. Which I guess makes more sense anyway.
I have tried a different coil from my 504 GL, Peter. I though I t initially sounded a bit better, but I think that was just wishful thinking. The fault is still there.
I know I have contradicted myself, Rob, but I think this is because of the inconsistency of the fault. I recon that if, for example, only 2 sparks were missed in every 50, the engine will sound worse regardless of which HT lead is pulled.
And now I think all the cylinders have a miss from time to time. Just that number 2 was the worst at that time.
I can say to that the distributor is new, the HT leads are new, the plugs are new and the coil is new. But I don’t know if the coil is good enough, or if the low-tension wiring is okay. These seem like a real long shot to me though.
Attached is a short video of what the tacho does. I caught it at its very worst. It’s not running like this all the time. Just every 10 or so seconds.
I know I have contradicted myself, Rob, but I think this is because of the inconsistency of the fault. I recon that if, for example, only 2 sparks were missed in every 50, the engine will sound worse regardless of which HT lead is pulled.
And now I think all the cylinders have a miss from time to time. Just that number 2 was the worst at that time.
I can say to that the distributor is new, the HT leads are new, the plugs are new and the coil is new. But I don’t know if the coil is good enough, or if the low-tension wiring is okay. These seem like a real long shot to me though.
Attached is a short video of what the tacho does. I caught it at its very worst. It’s not running like this all the time. Just every 10 or so seconds.
And that tacho uses your inductive pickup, right? I'm afraid I had been picturing the dropping tacho as being an in-car unit fed from the coil -ve.
Inductive pickups can be temperamental -- there needs to be a high enough current *and* a big enough spike in voltage, so it can't really tell between an open circuit and a short. The internals of the meter would come into it too.
In the audio, I could be convinced that there *was* a slight bobble from the engine when tacho dropped, but nothing like the indicated drop in revs. I have a feeling we might be chasing a quirk of the meter rather than your engine problem.
Perhaps you could try the pickup on the coil HT lead and see if any similar drops happen. Obviously your apparent revs will be 4x higher, but the pickup will see the waveform before the rotor button so if there's no bobble then it *might* indicate the problem is later in the electrical path... if this is anything to do with the problem at all.
Have fun,
Rob.
Inductive pickups can be temperamental -- there needs to be a high enough current *and* a big enough spike in voltage, so it can't really tell between an open circuit and a short. The internals of the meter would come into it too.
In the audio, I could be convinced that there *was* a slight bobble from the engine when tacho dropped, but nothing like the indicated drop in revs. I have a feeling we might be chasing a quirk of the meter rather than your engine problem.
Perhaps you could try the pickup on the coil HT lead and see if any similar drops happen. Obviously your apparent revs will be 4x higher, but the pickup will see the waveform before the rotor button so if there's no bobble then it *might* indicate the problem is later in the electrical path... if this is anything to do with the problem at all.
Have fun,
Rob.
Good idea, Rob, I’ll give that a go tonight.
I don’t think it’s the meter, as there is a definite pop from the exhaust, and a shake of the engine, when the needle drops. Also, when I connect the meter to my other 504 there is no problem with it.
Will keep you posted.
I don’t think it’s the meter, as there is a definite pop from the exhaust, and a shake of the engine, when the needle drops. Also, when I connect the meter to my other 504 there is no problem with it.
Will keep you posted.
Around 25 years ago I had my Ti completely overhauled, new every bloody thing ($$$$$$'s). Injection pump overhaul and all.
On return I had problems with a small (similar to tonch504 idle miss). The car on return to idle would idle perfectly for about 1 minute, then when it completely settled down it would get a random small pop/miss every 15 to 20 seconds. The car performed well in all other instances. I mainly used the car for towing a small race car so no problems under load.
I returned the car to the repairer numerous times, they contacted every one they knew that they thought could help but to no avail. They were very obliging and were genuinely trying to resolve the problem. They even fitted NEW injector ($$) at their cost.
A couple of years later I decided to have a fool around with tuning it by trial and error. I was able to make it perform a bit better however the idle miss was still there.
The car has been on club plates for years, i.e. it hardly ever is driven. The electric pump gummed up a couple of years ago, so I stripped that and found also crap in the tank. Gave every thing fuel related a clean out and tuned it again. Still had the idle miss. For some reason I decided to richen the mixture a bit :- The idle popping disappeared and so far has stayed away!
I think it may be worth a try on tonch504's car. Quite quick and easy to wind the mixture grub screw in one turn and see what happens, easy to put it back.
Good idea! Just count the degrees of turn or number of turns (likely 1 max as you say) and write it down, in case you want to dial it back again!
Regarding the electrical gremlins I would second robs ( I have described the same method elsewhere), but I suggest you use a strobe lamp (timing gun) if you have one, so you can see if the flashing is consistent on the coil HT wire to dizzy. If there are problems, you at least have eliminated everything downstream as a possible cause.
I would actually put money it is your condenser if you have one.
Coils can be troublesome too even if new, I don't trust them anymore (ask me why).
But first, you need to check your condenser for electrical leakage (not easy) see bleudanube's resto thread in the Cit forum, I explained how there.
I would actually put money it is your condenser if you have one.
Coils can be troublesome too even if new, I don't trust them anymore (ask me why).
But first, you need to check your condenser for electrical leakage (not easy) see bleudanube's resto thread in the Cit forum, I explained how there.
I have tested my meter (tachometer) on another 504. It works perfectly, so the fault is with the car not the meter.
Connected the induction clip of the tachometer to the main HT lead between the coil and the distributor cap. The fault is noticeable there too.
I have fitted another coil, but the fault remains.
I’m thinking to fit the proven distributor from my GL into the TI as a test. Can anyone tell me if they are interchangeable? I imagine the advance weights and/or springs are different, but just for the purpose of the test, running the engine at idle, will it work?
Connected the induction clip of the tachometer to the main HT lead between the coil and the distributor cap. The fault is noticeable there too.
I have fitted another coil, but the fault remains.
I’m thinking to fit the proven distributor from my GL into the TI as a test. Can anyone tell me if they are interchangeable? I imagine the advance weights and/or springs are different, but just for the purpose of the test, running the engine at idle, will it work?
many years ago I remember having problems with a Renault ten missing occasionally,turned out to be low tension lead coil to distributor,…just another thought…jim
I dont think the disy from the GL will fit in the TI because of the air intake tubes but the TI one should fit in the GL as a test. You will have to check the timing again .Also as was said before you could try an extra wire from dissy to coil
Ding, ding, ding… We have a result. It was the condenser.
The GL distributor does fit the TI, for what it is worth.
The engine still does have a bit of a ‘hunting’ thing going on, but, its not yet correctly tuned.
Big thanks to all, for all the great help.
The GL distributor does fit the TI, for what it is worth.
The engine still does have a bit of a ‘hunting’ thing going on, but, its not yet correctly tuned.
Big thanks to all, for all the great help.
Good result
If you want to free yourself of points/condenser the 123 Tune distributor works well with the KF. You can choose essentially whatever curves you want, just by setting them on your iPhone/Pad.
Which can be a mixed blessing at times
Andrew
If you want to free yourself of points/condenser the 123 Tune distributor works well with the KF. You can choose essentially whatever curves you want, just by setting them on your iPhone/Pad.
Which can be a mixed blessing at times
Andrew
Alternatively, you could buy a good quality condenser from a reputable electronics shop (I use RS components for convenience and stock, but there's many others like Farnell, Digikey, Mouser, etc. etc). Something with polypropylene as dielectric, .22 microfarads and rated at 450V or above (the higher the better) will do the job very well. Just choose one that will be easier to mount under the bonnet. Change it say every 1000 hours of operation (check the datasheet) and you'll never have problems.
What people don't realise is that capacitors (or condensers) are probably the most unreliable electronic part these days. Even very good ones do not last for ever and should be replaced as a matter of course especially when they work in hard conditions (heat, large voltage spikes, etc.). We figured out everything else but capacitor technology is tough to crack. They are worlds better than even ten years ago but there's still some way to go.
Car condensers were never very well made (strict specs) and in recent times they got way worse because new cars don't use them so major manufacturers for the auto industry don't make them anymore. Which means the old/vintage/classic car part market is sourcing from places where quality is not a key parameter. I wouldn't trust old stock either because dielectrics degrade even sitting on the shelf.
What people don't realise is that capacitors (or condensers) are probably the most unreliable electronic part these days. Even very good ones do not last for ever and should be replaced as a matter of course especially when they work in hard conditions (heat, large voltage spikes, etc.). We figured out everything else but capacitor technology is tough to crack. They are worlds better than even ten years ago but there's still some way to go.
Car condensers were never very well made (strict specs) and in recent times they got way worse because new cars don't use them so major manufacturers for the auto industry don't make them anymore. Which means the old/vintage/classic car part market is sourcing from places where quality is not a key parameter. I wouldn't trust old stock either because dielectrics degrade even sitting on the shelf.
When i had the points on my ducellior distributor replaced with electronic ignition within the existing dizzy by Performance Ignition Services they gave it back with no condenser and 2 wires one positive and one negative coming from the side of the dizzy to go to the coil. I had to rotate the dizzy drive 1 turn clockwise to get enough movement to reset the timing .Now it starts and runs perfectly.