308 Immobiliser??

[rlobo2]

05.02.24

I have 4 HRHH(engines), Peugeot 308 diesels 2011 year , all the 120KW variant and 3 are going.

Recently, P1 ( Peugeot 308 car 1) started to have an immoboliser? fault. It would start first thing and drive forever with no problems but once stopped it would then not recognise the key to unlock the engine ECU, until sometime later ( it would however pair with the rf pick up coil), possible on temperature.That is confirmed by use of a Autel OBD2 tablet, which shows the key pairing with the pickup coil/immobiliser,locking/unlocking of the ECU in live mode. So ? a thermal problem, i am thinking the BSI unit, an internal capacitor or possible a relay.

Rather then replace the BSI, i removed the ECU,BSI and key/lock from P2 and installed into P1. All cars have the same ECU Delphi, BSI . After replacing the ECU,BSI and lock,the ECU remains locked when the keys is inserted ( again the key and coil pair). So too be sure i returned the ECU etc to P2 and it starts P2.

My understanding is that you insert the key into the lock and the radio frequency coil picks up the code from the keys chip and this is received at the BSI ( ?by can-bus), then the BSI accepts it as the right key, or not and unlocks the ECU which then switches on the components for the engine to run eg fuel pump,starter motor.

So what other component needs transferring from P2 to P1 so that the ECU unlocks? Clearly there is some more silicon involved. Interestingly,the wreckers sell ignition sets with the ECU,BSI and key/lock. Sometimes with the instrument cluster, sometimes with the fuse box, or both. Is there a module in these that needs to convert the rf signal to can-bus?

There must be more because switching the P2 ECU,BSI and lock to P1 and then scanning gives the correct VIN for that car ,is recognised by P2s ECU ( the VIN of P1). So how does the P2 ECU, BSI get the VIN??correct. Or, does the OB2 scanner get the VIN from some other module , not the ECU or BSI. I assumed the VIN is set in the eeprom? in the BSI.

Appreciate any thoughts.

 

[AlexB]

I have 4 HRHH(engines), Peugeot 308 diesels 2011 year , all the 120KW variant and 3 are going.

Recently, P1 ( Peugeot 308 car 1) started to have an immoboliser? fault. It would start first thing and drive forever with no problems but once stopped it would then not recognise the key to unlock the engine ECU, until sometime later ( it would however pair with the rf pick up coil), possible on temperature.That is confirmed by use of a Autel OBD2 tablet, which shows the key pairing with the pickup coil/immobiliser,locking/unlocking of the ECU in live mode. So ? a thermal problem, i am thinking the BSI unit, an internal capacitor or possible a relay.

Welcome to AussieFrogs

Could be the BPGA.
When it drives and then fails to start, leave ignition key on and check if there's +12v to the starter motor and the other fuses.

There may be some relevant information in this post.

308 mysterious electrical component

What is the component mounted to the front of the battery cover that interrupts the starter cable on a 308? The battery is connected to one side and the starter to the other. Is it a fuse or a relay? How does it function?

www.aussiefrogs.com

 

[rlobo2]

Thanks for your welcome and advice.

After running it for 50km and then it not starting and with the ECU unlocked, i have a clicking from the starter solenoid and it is only 10.3 volts on the solenoid control wire. 12 plus volts on the starter itself but obviously the solenoid is not operating to start the motor. So most probable the starter solenoid is stuck, or there is a voltage drop from the BSI to the solenoid.

Tomorrow i will switch out this starter and see the difference.

Any thoughts on why exchanging the ecu,BSi and locks will not start the engine?

 

[ozVTR]

You have not proven that there is indeed an immobilizer fault. In fact by your non sequitur it seems the immobilizer is deactivated by the correct key. Therefore working just fine.
I don't know what you mean by "the coil and key are paired." The coil is just that...a coil. The engine ECU and the keys' transponder chip (the key) may be referred to as "paired". It's more complicated than that, but I hope you get the idea.
You even say in one of your posts, that the "ECU is unlocked"!

Seems to me that the problem is with the starter as you yourself have pointed out. Yes, when heated, a faulty starter may not work, but then work just fine when cold. If this is the case, then the starter will eventually fail all together. Typically, this is worn carbon brushes or the solenoid "slug" getting wedged in the barrel of the solenoid.

If the "BSI kit" from P2 locks out it's engine ECU when installed in P1, then it could be that the "HF module" in the COMMs unit (the device with the lights and wipers switch stalks in it) of P1, is not operating in the same mode as P2's. The HF module sends and receives signals from the key transponder, then on-sends that de-coded information to the BSI. FYI, it also receives signals from the central locking remote. In this case, the BSI will not receive a signal from the HF module (I.E. the key). So, the BSI will not pass on the code to unlock the engine ECU when requested by the engine ECU.

My theory is only a supposition, I don't have all the relevant facts.

 

[rlobo2]

You have not proven that there is indeed an immobilizer fault. In fact by your non sequitur it seems the immobilizer is deactivated by the correct key. Therefore working just fine.
I don't know what you mean by "the coil and key are paired." The coil is just that...a coil. The engine ECU and the keys' transponder chip (the key) may be referred to as "paired". It's more complicated than that, but I hope you get the idea.
You even say in one of your posts, that the "ECU is unlocked"!

Seems to me that the problem is with the starter as you yourself have pointed out. Yes, when heated, a faulty starter may not work, but then work just fine when cold. If this is the case, then the starter will eventually fail all together. Typically, this is worn carbon brushes or the solenoid "slug" getting wedged in the barrel of the solenoid.

If the "BSI kit" from P2 locks out it's engine ECU when installed in P1, then it could be that the "HF module" in the COMMs unit (the device with the lights and wipers switch stalks in it) of P1, is not operating in the same mode as P2's. The HF module sends and receives signals from the key transponder, then on-sends that de-coded information to the BSI. FYI, it also receives signals from the central locking remote. In this case, the BSI will not receive a signal from the HF module (I.E. the key). So, the BSI will not pass on the code to unlock the engine ECU when requested by the engine ECU.

My theory is only a supposition, I don't have all the relevant facts.

Yes i agree with you , i could not be convinced that the immobilizer was causing the problem ,or the starter solenoid. my impression was that sometimes the ECU was not unlocked when the starter would not operate. More correctly that the starter solenoid would not operate.
I replaced the starter and so far the problem has not repeated, even after a run of 30kms. Hopefully, that cures it, time will tell.
Again you are right about the "pairing", the rf chip in the immobilizer and the key pair by their coils etc and exchanging a code, possible the 4 digit pin .
With the "click" from the solenoid it would incline me to think it is the "slug" binding. the way around this used to be to just turn the slug over 180 degrees and it is good for another 100k kms. Will see if that is possible.
That is worth knowing, that the rf module is in the combination steering wheel unit , i will attempt to exchange the stalks unit and see if that will unlock the ECU. The wreckers selling ignition units should know this rather then selling instrument clusters.
Taking off the steering wheel may be interesting.
Thanks for your reply.

 

[ozVTR]

The Transponder does not contain the engine ECU PIN. However, a copy of the engine ECU PIN is stored in the BSI. On start up, the engine ECU requests the transponder identifier. This is then put on the CAN BUS either by the BSI or the COMM's unit (from the HF module). The engine ECU also requests the immobilizer (engine) PIN code, which is provided by the BSI. If the engine ECU recognizes the codes, the engine ECU will begin managing the engine. FYI, while running, the engine ECU does not poll the transponder.
If you have swapped out the BSI, the mileage on the BSI or the odometer may have changed. But then you might know that?

The people on Ebay and the wreckers don't have a clue. Without the proper knowledge and tools most of the stuff they sell (to do with the electronics) is useless. I wonder how many people buy this stuff just to find it doesn't work?

 

[rlobo2]

The Transponder does not contain the engine ECU PIN. However, a copy of the engine ECU PIN is stored in the BSI. On start up, the engine ECU requests the transponder identifier. This is then put on the CAN BUS either by the BSI or the COMM's unit (from the HF module). The engine ECU also requests the immobilizer (engine) PIN code, which is provided by the BSI. If the engine ECU recognizes the codes, the engine ECU will begin managing the engine. FYI, while running, the engine ECU does not poll the transponder.
If you have swapped out the BSI, the mileage on the BSI or the odometer may have changed. But then you might know that?

The people on Ebay and the wreckers don't have a clue. Without the proper knowledge and tools most of the stuff they sell (to do with the electronics) is useless. I wonder how many people buy this stuff just to find it doesn't work?

Just spent a couple of frustrating hours removing the steering air bag. Replaced the stalk module ( transceiver/transponder) from P2 to P1 and it starts and it makes no difference with all of P2's BSI,lock and ECU in P1, it doesn't matter which transponder is used it still will not start - locked ECU. So the transceiver/transponder has no logic, as you say it just translates the keys rf signal and passes it to the BSI. No , of course it does not poll the transponder while running, only to start. You don't want your engine shutting down if your transponder and key lose communication.
The mileage is not important both P1,P2 have only 120K on the odometer but even so one of my OBD tools can adjust the km's to anything you you want. Although i have not used feature.
So the question remains how is P2's BSI,ECU picking up P1's vin correctly but will not unlock the ECU.

 

[ozVTR]

"So the question remains how is P2's BSI,ECU picking up P1's vin correctly but will not unlock the ECU."

I'm not sure what you mean by "picking up". Are you saying P2's BSI is now showing P1's VIN?
The VIN is in the BSI. Change the BSI and you change the VIN. Have you somehow mixed the BSI's up? One BSI will have P1's VIN, the other will have P2's VIN. You will need to install and poll both BSI's and check the VIN's.
The VIN's can easily be changed by a scan tool but not by themselves!
The VIN plays no part in the immobilizer system. It just tells you what car that BSI belongs to and is part of the security system for the stock radio. But that's all.

Have you tried P1's BSI, engine ECU and transponder in P2?

 

[dimistyle]

But don't change the VINs unless you have recorded the 4 digit key code otherwise you'll never be able to program any new keys. Best not to change VIN as dealer can look up key code via VIN even if BSI is in another car

 

[rlobo2]

"So the question remains how is P2's BSI,ECU picking up P1's vin correctly but will not unlock the ECU."

I'm not sure what you mean by "picking up". Are you saying P2's BSI is now showing P1's VIN?
The VIN is in the BSI. Change the BSI and you change the VIN. Have you somehow mixed the BSI's up? One BSI will have P1's VIN, the other will have P2's VIN. You will need to install and poll both BSI's and check the VIN's.
The VIN's can easily be changed by a scan tool but not by themselves!
The VIN plays no part in the immobilizer system. It just tells you what car that BSI belongs to and is part of the security system for the stock radio. But that's all.

Have you tried P1's BSI, engine ECU and transponder in P2?

Yes, but P2's lock,BSI and ECU into P1 and it readers as the ECU is locked but it shows PI's Vin. This doesn't seem logical but this may be why the ECU remains locked ie a conflict between the Vins? I am using a Autel OBD2 scanner so you would expect it to get the Vin from the BSI and/or the ECU, maybe it doesn't? May be this is just to do with the scanner but you select the make, model of the vehicle and then select the computer module you want results from ,the ECU. I have ordered a Lexia scanner and will see if that makes any difference, but i can not see how. Looking at the advice on the internet, if you replace the BSI then you need to use Lexia and Diabox or some software to write to the eeprom with the VIN etc so that definitively suggests that the BSI has the Vin . I can check that by reading the eeprom directly but it is time consuming and not something i really want to do.
I agree, the obvious conclusion is that i have mixed up P1 and P2's BSI and ECU. So i have checked this very carefully, several times and returned the sets back to their original vehicles, label all the components P1 or P2 and have exactly the same result and i have tried putting P1's components in P2 with exactly the same result , my scanner now says it has P2's Vin and it will not unlock the ECU. Put the components back in the original vehicles and they behave as you would expect, the ECU is unlocked, the cars start and run normally.
The idea was just to swap the BSI ,lock and ECU because that was the easy way to replace a BSI.
Not so it seems.

 

[ozVTR]

But don't change the VINs unless you have recorded the 4 digit key code otherwise you'll never be able to program any new keys. Best not to change VIN as dealer can look up key code via VIN even if BSI is in another car

But putting a BSI in a different car and retaining the old VIN has it's own problems. Not insurmountable, but I wouldn't do that.
I tried to get the PIN for my C3 from Brisbane Citroen. They absolutely REFUSED to give me that info UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE! They were quite willing to do whatever job it was that required the PIN but they would not give it to me.
So I opened up the BSI and hacked the EEPROM to get it!!
Now, I understand that the franchises are under no obligation to give me that information...again, under any circumstance. I'm not complaining about that. But be aware, you may not be able to just wander down to your local dealership and get the PIN. It's up to them whether they do or don't. Also they don't give you the PIN when you buy a new car, like they used to.
There are scanners that will obtain the PIN without you going to a dealer or needing to open up the BSI to get it. But the people with that level of expertise are few and far between here in Australia.
Yes, I get your point about changing VIN's, it's not going to help if you need to "seek professional help" and things are all muddled up. But never is an absolute...and I hate dealing with absolutes!

 

[ozVTR]

I can only make 2 assumptions.
1) The Autel is lazy. It might be getting the VIN from the radio and not the BSI? Or it has cashed it from a previous scan, sees something familliar and says "thats good enough for me, here is the VIN". I don't know.
2) The BSI is looking at other ECU's like the radio, the power steering ECU, the ABS ECU and so on. It might be building up a list of serial numbers or whatever. If they don't match it locks out the engine ECU???
This car is a later model than I am used to and they are always looking for ways to "improve" things!

 

[rlobo2]

I can only make 2 assumptions.
1) The Autel is lazy. It might be getting the VIN from the radio and not the BSI? Or it has cashed it from a previous scan, sees something familliar and says "thats good enough for me, here is the VIN". I don't know.
2) The BSI is looking at other ECU's like the radio, the power steering ECU, the ABS ECU and so on. It might be building up a list of serial numbers or whatever. If they don't match it locks out the engine ECU???
This car is a later model than I am used to and they are always looking for ways to "improve" things!

I think you are right, but i think it is probably 2), i suspect the scanner is polling all the microprocessors and arriving at a majority decision. I will test your theory , once i get some time. I have a 'blank" BSI for this car so will install it ( without any programming ) and see what Vin it comes up with.
Personally i think "improve " things makes it a bit odder, for lack of a better word. Maybe they gave this to some of the junior programmers as a learning technique?

 

[rlobo2]

But putting a BSI in a different car and retaining the old VIN has it's own problems. Not insurmountable, but I wouldn't do that.
I tried to get the PIN for my C3 from Brisbane Citroen. They absolutely REFUSED to give me that info UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE! They were quite willing to do whatever job it was that required the PIN but they would not give it to me.
So I opened up the BSI and hacked the EEPROM to get it!!
Now, I understand that the franchises are under no obligation to give me that information...again, under any circumstance. I'm not complaining about that. But be aware, you may not be able to just wander down to your local dealership and get the PIN. It's up to them whether they do or don't. Also they don't give you the PIN when you buy a new car, like they used to.
There are scanners that will obtain the PIN without you going to a dealer or needing to open up the BSI to get it. But the people with that level of expertise are few and far between here in Australia.
Yes, I get your point about changing VIN's, it's not going to help if you need to "seek professional help" and things are all muddled up. But never is an absolute...and I hate dealing with absolutes!

I am in Maryborough and use the Bunderberg Peugeot dealers who are very good. They only want $20 for the PIN , so at least i don't have that problem. Apparently, there use to be some software on the net that would give you your pin, for some $'s and use your VIN to look up the appropriate PIN. Of course, you have to provide some proof of ownership to the Peugeot dealership.
I have the tools to look at the BSI eeprom but if i can use a not so destructive way of doing it i would much prefer that. My BSI is glued into its housing and i would have to hack the plastic backing , did you have that problem?
I would have thought that at least a priority protocol would be used. So the VIN in the ECU has a higher "value" then say the Steering VIN. I can understand why the radio needs a VIN since they may be at a much higher risk of theft but they also have their own unique pin code. So a bit of over kill.

 

[dimistyle]

If you have a blank BSI (virginised) then the VIN and PIN key code need to be set when PP/Lexia connect. Ideally use the PIN that matched the VIN it's the only method I've used.

Remove the Radio to try your theory it's the only other ECU VIN coded other than engine ECU and BSI.

 

[rlobo2]

If you have a blank BSI (virginised) then the VIN and PIN key code need to be set when PP/Lexia connect. Ideally use the PIN that matched the VIN it's the only method I've used.

Remove the Radio to try your theory it's the only other ECU VIN coded other than engine ECU and BSI.

Yes i think that is an excellent idea, once i have my Lexia installed and running i will definitely try it. The radio seems like the most likely place for the Vin. Thanks .

 

[ozVTR]

I think you are right, but i think it is probably 2), i suspect the scanner is polling all the microprocessors and arriving at a majority decision. I will test your theory , once i get some time. I have a 'blank" BSI for this car so will install it ( without any programming ) and see what Vin it comes up with.
Personally i think "improve " things makes it a bit odder, for lack of a better word. Maybe they gave this to some of the junior programmers as a learning technique?

When you look at the difference between Peugeot Planet and LEXIA, you might be tempted to agree that the "junior programmers" put the LEXIA program together!
I sometimes throw my Citroen C3 onto PP if LEXIA is not giving me satisfaction. A lot more professional looking and a bit more functionality, "sigh".

 

[rlobo2]

When you look at the difference between Peugeot Planet and LEXIA, you might be tempted to agree that the "junior programmers" put the LEXIA program together!
I sometimes throw my Citroen C3 onto PP if LEXIA is not giving me satisfaction. A lot more professional looking and a bit more functionality, "sigh".

I am still trying to get my head around this software. Use Win xp or 10 ( I hate windows ) , use 32 or 64 bit, Diagbox versions 7 or 9 with updates, use virtual - or not. I realise this is old but talk about confusing. I see posts from people who have 3 laptops with different PP, so as not to run into problems with different software. The way i look at it, is if it works then so be it . It may not be the best looking program but as long as it does the job.