1979, 504 Ti - Running rich

dacia4x4

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OK that valve gap is OK, rev rise of about 200rpm when 4mm Allen screw raised sounds OK, have you tried adjusting 4mm Allen screw (which adjusts fuel mix) either in or out? can,t remember if in enriched or leans off mixture. usually only quarter of a turn at a time if i remember.
 

BIGRR

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Yes, i have done the adjustments, i have the right gap when the engine temp is about 80`C. But i have never got the engine revs to rise while lifting the arm, except last time i tried, it rised +/- 200rpm, but that was with the air bypass screw almost all the way out, the co screw all the way out, so nothing left to adjust, and after a few minutes with temp increasing the engine revs decreased and it stopped. If i screw the co / mixture adjuster in, the revs dont rise when i lift the arm, and regardless, the plugs get sooted.
Screw the 4mm grub screw out a couple of turns and see if things improve. I have always found best starting point (Before fine tuning) by letting the engine idle (cold will do it is only a starting point) screw 4mm grub out a turn at a time until the engine stops (might be 6 or 7 or so full turns). Then turn grub back in a couple of turns (Count where you are upto) start the engine again and keep screwing the grub in (Counting turns) until the engine again stalls. Then set the grub screw midway. If the engine runs reasonably good you have the starting point for the fine tune. You may have to reset the air bypass screw. Mine runs only about a turn off the seat.

The orifice plate behind the square slotted plug at the front of the manifold is fitted?
 

lowpugV2

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I have no helpful input other than I've been watching m539 restoration on YouTube have similar struggles with his e21 323i with kugelfischer. So at least you have company!
 

Alex Foss

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OK that valve gap is OK, rev rise of about 200rpm when 4mm Allen screw raised sounds OK, have you tried adjusting 4mm Allen screw (which adjusts fuel mix) either in or out? can,t remember if in enriched or leans off mixture. usually only quarter of a turn at a time if i remember.
Yes, thats what i meant when i refered to the co / mixture adjuster. In is richer, out is leaner.
 

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Alex Foss

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Screw the 4mm grub screw out a couple of turns and see if things improve. I have always found best starting point (Before fine tuning) by letting the engine idle (cold will do it is only a starting point) screw 4mm grub out a turn at a time until the engine stops (might be 6 or 7 or so full turns). Then turn grub back in a couple of turns (Count where you are upto) start the engine again and keep screwing the grub in (Counting turns) until the engine again stalls. Then set the grub screw midway. If the engine runs reasonably good you have the starting point for the fine tune. You may have to reset the air bypass screw. Mine runs only about a turn off the seat.

The orifice plate behind the square slotted plug at the front of the manifold is fitted?
Thanks for the tip regarding a starting point, i will do that and try again. But as of now, even with the 4mm grub all the way out (lean) the plugs get sooted, and as i mentioned the only time i got the revs to rise by lifting the control arm was with the 4mm grub all the way out. So it seems that there is something else causing it to run rich, maybe the barometer? I`ve tried with both the original, which is "paired" with the pump and another one, same result. Maybe the main pump tension nut? Anyone know the "starting point" for that ?

And yes, the plate in the manifold is fitted, and the light-gap at the throttle flap is adjusted.
 

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BIGRR

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Thanks for the tip regarding a starting point, i will do that and try again. But as of now, even with the 4mm grub all the way out (lean) the plugs get sooted, and as i mentioned the only time i got the revs to rise by lifting the control arm was with the 4mm grub all the way out. So it seems that there is something else causing it to run rich, maybe the barometer? I`ve tried with both the original, which is "paired" with the pump and another one, same result. Maybe the main pump tension nut? Anyone know the "starting point" for that ?

And yes, the plate in the manifold is fitted, and the light-gap at the throttle flap is adjusted.
I don't have a starting point for the main tension nut. However years ago the "hot-em-up boys" used to give them a couple of turns in (I think) and they said they went better. (Not fuel efficient I bet). SO... (and I know it is a pain to do) you could try giving the tension nut a couple of turns in or out. (If it was not so late here I could work out which way is lean. Sure you could work it out though. :)

Does the cover over the tension nut seal?

When my main diaphragm split years ago the car still ran though very rough, big puffs of black smoke and it sounded at idle like it had a big cam fitted.

Other than the above, I am running out of ideas.

There are a few more experts on Ti here that may come in later.
 

Alex Foss

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I don't have a starting point for the main tension nut. However years ago the "hot-em-up boys" used to give them a couple of turns in (I think) and they said they went better. (Not fuel efficient I bet). SO... (and I know it is a pain to do) you could try giving the tension nut a couple of turns in or out. (If it was not so late here I could work out which way is lean. Sure you could work it out though. :)

Does the cover over the tension nut seal?

When my main diaphragm split years ago the car still ran though very rough, big puffs of black smoke and it sounded at idle like it had a big cam fitted.

Other than the above, I am running out of ideas.

There are a few more experts on Ti here that may come in later.
I dont read german, but if google translate does, then turning it in gives a leaner mixture according to the attached document. I should give it a try, see what happens. But anyway i would like to know whats the "correct" position.

The cover does seal, yes.
 

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Andrew Watkins

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I dont read german, but if google translate does, then turning it in gives a leaner mixture according to the attached document. I should give it a try, see what happens. But anyway i would like to know whats the "correct" position.

The cover does seal, yes.
Good article

Google translate is right

Happy to do full translation should anybody need one

Andrew
 

dacia4x4

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i realise you have new electronic ignition,but has coil voltage output been checked? or basics as body to engine earth? just thinking along lines of weak spark and fuel not being fully burnt...... just another straw grasped at.... jim
 

julian c b

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I assume the ignition timing is set up correctly. I was having problems with my 504 cab which were fixed with an electronic insert replacing the points in the ducellia distributor. To get the timing right i had to lift and reposition the dissy drive to get enough movement.
 

Alex Foss

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i realise you have new electronic ignition,but has coil voltage output been checked? or basics as body to engine earth? just thinking along lines of weak spark and fuel not being fully burnt...... just another straw grasped at.... jim
Yes, checked and OK to both. Also tried different spark plugs, all with 0,6mm gap.

I assume the ignition timing is set up correctly. I was having problems with my 504 cab which were fixed with an electronic insert replacing the points in the ducellia distributor. To get the timing right i had to lift and reposition the dissy drive to get enough movement.
Yes, adjusted correctly and checked with a timing gun.
 

pugwash

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Rich can also mean, not enough air i presume you have checked the filter and tried running without it ,PUGS
 

Alex Foss

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Rich can also mean, not enough air i presume you have checked the filter and tried running without it ,PUGS
Yes, currently without the filter.
As you have rebuilt the engine, were new rings installed? Are the rings bedded in?
Yes, complete with new liners, pistons and rings. I guess they are not bedded in, as the engine have only been running on idle in the garage so far.
 

dacia4x4

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may need check others opinions on bedding in rings but in my workshop days i would run engine at 12oo to1500revs for at least 20minutes and avoid idling as if you let engine idle from first start up there is a good possibility of glazing cylinder bores which will let oil past piston rings into combustion chambers. ....jim
 

dacia4x4

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hi Alex, just remembered there is a restrict sleeve in vacuum hose from oil filler cap hose to inlet manifold i think. maybe if that is missing it will muck up manifold vacuum and upper diaphragm position.... jim
 

dacia4x4

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piston ring end gaps were checked i assume? we're the oil control rings three piece segmental rings and nothing has been removed from expander ring ends? if metal has been removed from expander ring then oil control ring will not perform it's oil scraping as efficiently on downward stroke, especially on intake stroke where there is no load on top of piston but vacuum wanting to draw oil up past rings.....just another thought.. jim
 

Haakon

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may need check others opinions on bedding in rings but in my workshop days i would run engine at 12oo to1500revs for at least 20minutes and avoid idling as if you let engine idle from first start up there is a good possibility of glazing cylinder bores which will let oil past piston rings into combustion chambers. ....jim
That was my first thought - shit, new engine and extended idling! If it runs well enough get it out for a drive and some open throttle pulls - get those rings seated.

I’ve heard of someone buying a brand new Megane Sport and before delivery it had its windows tinted - the tinting shop accidentally left it parked and idling for many hours. Engine had oil consumption issues permanently from then on…
 

Alex Foss

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hi Alex, just remembered there is a restrict sleeve in vacuum hose from oil filler cap hose to inlet manifold i think. maybe if that is missing it will muck up manifold vacuum and upper diaphragm position.... jim
Hmm, i dont remember seeing a restrict sleeve in the hose. The hose is brand new, if this is the one you meant? https://www.serie04.com/gb/lubricat...se.html?search_query=breather+hose&results=22

Regarding the idling, i would guess its been running for about 1 hour in total, while trying to adjust the idling and the fuel/air mix. I will try to get it out on the road asap, before the snow is coming.
 

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If you can't get the KF running properly, you should consider twin 40 mm DCOE's (DCOE manifolds are hard to find, but available) or a Weber DGAV on an Argentinean manifold and an electric fuel pump like a Facet.. Not quite as smooth, but very reliable and far less temperamental. It has been my experience that the KF system can run forever, once. Once you open it, it's game over. You can send it to hermann.sattelberger@de.bosch.com. for a professional rebuild, but then the fuel pump tends to crap the bed when sitting long. So the carburetors provide peace of mind for a long time.
 
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