Hi guys. The team at Electrogusto are potentially converting a 1971 DS 21 Pallas Sedan to Electric. To do this we would need to swap the original automatic gearbox out for a manual gearbox. Does anyone have one for sale and or could they tell me if they are difficult to find and where should I look to find one. Also if anyone has any contacts that are DS experts that we could consult with here in Sydney that would be great. I appreciate your help. Nick 0409939556 nick@electrogusto.com.au
1971 DS manual gearbox help
- Thread starter nickcummins
- Start date
There are some very well informed DS people here, and someone won't be far away.
If you haven't got a copy already, find and download B14-1-searchable.pdf. There is quite a bit about the DS manual boxes in that document.
If you haven't got a copy already, find and download B14-1-searchable.pdf. There is quite a bit about the DS manual boxes in that document.
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DoubleChevron
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Fellow Frogger
Who was clearing out there stock of DSparts recently? I bet they have a container full of unwanted 4spd DS gearboxes! ..... after all you can't really wear the things out 
Thanks Will do
Hi Seasink. Is that PDF on this site? I couldn't find it
Not to my knowledge.
Another potential info source: https://sites.google.com/view/citronpublicationslist/home/
Another potential info source: https://sites.google.com/view/citronpublicationslist/home/
thanks for that. appreciate your help.
Thats fantastic thanks.
That would be this one.Who was clearing out there stock of DSparts recently? I bet they have a container full of unwanted 4spd DS gearboxes! ..... after all you can't really wear the things out
His contact email is at the bottom.
I was at that "clearout".
Steve was very kind to disperse his collection.
We didn't get enough "re-collectors" to empty the containers.
I'll be going back, soon, with my hoist to collect heavy stuff, engines, gearboxes etc.
I expect there is a suitable box there.
Yes, 4 speed of that era.
You can contact me for more DS info if needed.
Bob
Steve was very kind to disperse his collection.
We didn't get enough "re-collectors" to empty the containers.
I'll be going back, soon, with my hoist to collect heavy stuff, engines, gearboxes etc.
I expect there is a suitable box there.
Yes, 4 speed of that era.
You can contact me for more DS info if needed.
Bob
Bob that is great news. I appreciate that. If we can get our hands on a gearbox that would be fantastic. My contact details are 0409939556 or nick@electrogusto.com.au. I really appreciate your help with this. thank Nick
It won't be an 'automatic' but presumably you are surprisingly disemboweling a Pallas Hydraulique. If that's the case, there are others who would happily acquire the complete gearbox, clutch, flywheel and related peripherals setup. Or they'd suggest starting with a manual car instead. It's all different to a regular manual so there's more than the gearbox to swap. Keep in mind the manual gearboxes are not all the same and there is variation in the ratios and particularly the top gear. An older ID19B 4 speed would have a top gear that's about the same as the DS 4-speeders vs the 1.9lt/2lt ID gearbox. Why is it not possible to replace just the engine and keep the gearchange system that eliminates the clutch pedal? It is essentially an automated manual with a dry-plate clutch. There are of course components that would be hard to adapt as they rely upon engine speed etc. etc..
It would be rare but you could have gotten a DS21 with a Borg Warner auto box. From memory 71/72 was the year they introduced it shortly before bringing out the DS23. If it is a BVH then you don't need to do anything special as the clutch by deafult is engaged. Just mate the motor to the original flywheel or delete the clutch entirely and you're done.
The gearboxes are a bit of a lottery depending on exactly which year and model it came from. For an electric conversion you really want a 70s ID19b/Dspecial gearbox mated to a DS final drive which gives you a 4th gear that is only a tiny bit lower than the factory 5sp box. It's a combination only recommended for EFI cars which have a lot more torque to cope with the higher 4th gear ratio. The Dsuper5 can have a lower 5th gear than a DS 5SP.
The only way to work out which box you have is to read first 2 numbers on the tag rived to the box under where the steering rack would normally be or start counting teeth. This is the one on my '70 DS21 BVH note the "65" code
Harry Martens put this list together of the codes for standard gearboxes
63 : ID 19 B 4 bvm
64 : DS 21 M 4 bvm
65,71 : DS 4 bvh
06 : Dspecial 4 bvm
14 : Dsuper 4 bvm
75 : Ideal 4 bvm (?)
106 : SM 5 bvm
107 : DS, DSuper5, 5 bak, bvm
108 : DSuper optionale 5 bak bvm
And to correlate those to something useful, here is a table of all the factory gearbox configurations for 5 bearing short stroke engines. The table also lists out a few custom combinations.
DS GEARBOX RATIOS
The parts are interchangable between any of these gearboxes so you can mix and match ratios. The only limiting factor is the gears are paired so you have to swap 1st&2nd together or 3rd&4th together.
Note that the 3 bearing long stroke engines have totally different gearboxes.
The gearboxes are a bit of a lottery depending on exactly which year and model it came from. For an electric conversion you really want a 70s ID19b/Dspecial gearbox mated to a DS final drive which gives you a 4th gear that is only a tiny bit lower than the factory 5sp box. It's a combination only recommended for EFI cars which have a lot more torque to cope with the higher 4th gear ratio. The Dsuper5 can have a lower 5th gear than a DS 5SP.
The only way to work out which box you have is to read first 2 numbers on the tag rived to the box under where the steering rack would normally be or start counting teeth. This is the one on my '70 DS21 BVH note the "65" code
Harry Martens put this list together of the codes for standard gearboxes
63 : ID 19 B 4 bvm
64 : DS 21 M 4 bvm
65,71 : DS 4 bvh
06 : Dspecial 4 bvm
14 : Dsuper 4 bvm
75 : Ideal 4 bvm (?)
106 : SM 5 bvm
107 : DS, DSuper5, 5 bak, bvm
108 : DSuper optionale 5 bak bvm
And to correlate those to something useful, here is a table of all the factory gearbox configurations for 5 bearing short stroke engines. The table also lists out a few custom combinations.
DS GEARBOX RATIOS
The parts are interchangable between any of these gearboxes so you can mix and match ratios. The only limiting factor is the gears are paired so you have to swap 1st&2nd together or 3rd&4th together.
Note that the 3 bearing long stroke engines have totally different gearboxes.
The tall top gear that's about the same as the DS21 and the taller 5-speed is only found in ID19B up to production in about 1968. I forget the exact date of the change. It's in the manual I think. The later ID19B and also when renamed DSpecial had a lower top gear. The later DSpecials had a further slight reduction. It really depends what is wanted, but the main point is to be aware there are differences.
Surely, in an electric conversion, the ratios don't really matter?
Isn't one of the advantages of electric power, that the motor can deliver it's power at a huge range of speeds?
Do they change gears at all?
I thought that it would be locked into one gear, direct coupled, and basically just providing a final drive/diff, and a connection for the drive shafts.
Or am I completely wrong about electric drive?
Isn't one of the advantages of electric power, that the motor can deliver it's power at a huge range of speeds?
Do they change gears at all?
I thought that it would be locked into one gear, direct coupled, and basically just providing a final drive/diff, and a connection for the drive shafts.
Or am I completely wrong about electric drive?
DoubleChevron
Real cars have hydraulics
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For stop start, heavy traffic ... leave it in 2nd ... lots of acceleration, limited top speed. For normal driving ... 3rd or 4th. To go backwards, reverse the direction of the motor
I'd love to have a ride/drive in an electric DS. Could you imagine how silent and smooth it would be 
Would you even bother wiring it so you could reverse the polarity, why not just stick the gearbox in reverse?For stop start, heavy traffic ... leave it in 2nd ... lots of acceleration, limited top speed. For normal driving ... 3rd or 4th. To go backwards, reverse the direction of the motor
I'm guessing they aren't going to be running a 400 kW Tesla motor, (and it's substantial torque)) through a D gearbox, so the choice of ratios for different environments makes sense in a lower kW/torque application.
Changing gears "on the fly" would be difficult at best without a clutch.
Having a clutch could make it even more fun.
Most likely a Netgain Hyper9, with about 90kw (max capability) and about 240Nm should be plenty to make it move reasonably well, much better than any of the original engines from Citroen.
Hopefully the cross member, that goes under the engine, doesn't interfere with the motor install.
I did an electric conversion on a Polo about 12 years ago. I used a Netgain Warp 9 direct coupled to the input shaft of the gearbox. Only needed to use 2nd, 3rd & reverse. I found that it really needed a clutch. Taking off was fine & shifting up was fairly easy but shifting down was quite difficult without crunching. The Polo gearbox wasn't very strong so input power had to be limited.
Tesla motors are very powerful & have a single speed Tesla designed reduction box to cope with the torque. These motors can spin up to 20000 rpm
Tesla motors are very powerful & have a single speed Tesla designed reduction box to cope with the torque. These motors can spin up to 20000 rpm