EXTRACTING 68 SAFARI STARTER NEED REPLACEMENT
- Thread starter gilberthenry
- Start date
Hopefully I've got another 20 years in me yet - - what sort of world will we be living in then ??
I've been pulling the ID19B apart to get to the failing starter and those shallow headed bolts are as much of a trial as on the Safari. The starter is smaller so I'll undo it and - - just maybe - - it;ll drop through the bottom - - a tall order I'm sure.
Brother Michael gave me a few thermostats that he'd been testing so I thought I'd re-test them along with the one out of the D Special and the new one for the Big 6. It turns out the Special opened at 82-83 degrees while the new Big 6 one ( which I got from Steeley at Just Cits ) opened at about the same - both at what degrees was written on them so I put the Special one back in the water pump back bracket housing and put the Big 6 one into that car. I then tested the one that came out of the Big 6 and it opened at about 75 which it had written on it so I might put that in the '28 Packard which has been running to cool. The Big 6 has been also a bit cool so the 82 degree one might prove to be better. The Big 6 has a temp. gauge so we'll see.
So on we go.
John
Attachments
Are you going to source a nice little geared reduction starter for it ?
https://www.ccw-tools.com/WOSP-LMS7...er-Reduction-Gear-Starter-Motor__p-78030.aspx
Not cheap, but probably great for starting tired old motors
I extracted the starter out of the ID19B quite easily. I pulIed the exhaust manifold off but didn't have to undo the clutch cable as I pulled the high pressure pump completely out.
I logged onto Citroen Classics but they state - -
DUE TO A HIGH NUMBER OF PROBLEMS WITH THIS PARTICULAR MODEL OF STARTER, WE HAVE TEMPORARILY REMOVED THEM FROM SALE WHILST WE IDENTIFY THE PROBLEM AND LOOK AT ALTERNATIVES.
So for the moment I'm stuck and have to look around. I wonder if the one you suggest, Shane, is a 10 tooth starter and I wonder if there are any other contacts around to buy one - - - actually 2.
John
Are you going to source a nice little geared reduction starter for it ?
https://www.ccw-tools.com/WOSP-LMS7...er-Reduction-Gear-Starter-Motor__p-78030.aspx
Not cheap, but probably great for starting tired old motors Shane
I extracted the starter out of the ID19B quite easily. I pulIed the exhaust manifold off but didn't have to undo the clutch cable as I pulled the high pressure pump completely out.
I logged onto Citroen Classics but they state - -
DUE TO A HIGH NUMBER OF PROBLEMS WITH THIS PARTICULAR MODEL OF STARTER, WE HAVE TEMPORARILY REMOVED THEM FROM SALE WHILST WE IDENTIFY THE PROBLEM AND LOOK AT ALTERNATIVES.
So for the moment I'm stuck and have to look around. I wonder if the one you suggest, Shane, is a 10 tooth starter and I wonder if there are any other contacts around to buy one - - - actually 2.
It is now Sunday - - listening to Macca. Michael's been working on his 1923 Buick ute and he reminded me of the new starter that was made up for his 1924 or so Hupmobile. This was from a place in Castlemaine so if this Covid thing is lifted I might take the 2 starters down and see what they think. A flurry of snow this morning. Atleast the container in which the 2 cars are is a bit warmer than the "garage shed" where this computer is - - as I sit typing in my fingerless gloves. Wanting to keep the house free of such modern clutter as a computer, one wonders sometimes if this was a sensible decision.
John
https://www.ccw-tools.com/WOSP-LMS7...er-Reduction-Gear-Starter-Motor__p-78030.aspx
Not cheap, but probably great for starting tired old motors
ShaneI extracted the starter out of the ID19B quite easily. I pulIed the exhaust manifold off but didn't have to undo the clutch cable as I pulled the high pressure pump completely out.
I logged onto Citroen Classics but they state - -
DUE TO A HIGH NUMBER OF PROBLEMS WITH THIS PARTICULAR MODEL OF STARTER, WE HAVE TEMPORARILY REMOVED THEM FROM SALE WHILST WE IDENTIFY THE PROBLEM AND LOOK AT ALTERNATIVES.
So for the moment I'm stuck and have to look around. I wonder if the one you suggest, Shane, is a 10 tooth starter and I wonder if there are any other contacts around to buy one - - - actually 2.
It is now Sunday - - listening to Macca. Michael's been working on his 1923 Buick ute and he reminded me of the new starter that was made up for his 1924 or so Hupmobile. This was from a place in Castlemaine so if this Covid thing is lifted I might take the 2 starters down and see what they think. A flurry of snow this morning. Atleast the container in which the 2 cars are is a bit warmer than the "garage shed" where this computer is - - as I sit typing in my fingerless gloves. Wanting to keep the house free of such modern clutter as a computer, one wonders sometimes if this was a sensible decision.
John
Last edited:
I do recall a handful of cases in the UK and Europe of the modern starters failing - about 4 years ag. One was on a 66 car (so 10 tooth) but I'm sure others were on later 9 tooth cars. With such low numbers, they were dismissed as one-offs. The working theory at the time, was that there was an inferior quality batch produced or that the manufacturer had changed. Originals were marked 'Valeo' but the suspect ones were not. As I say, it was a theory at the time. There are lots of things produced by Valeo that work just fine - so I'm sure that doesn't universally apply.
I had my original ducellier one rebuilt by a local auto elec 3 years ago and it’s been perfect ever since. Just make sure to go through the procedure for setting the pinion depth before fitting it. Otherwise the pinion will grind against the ring gear rather than engage with it.
You can always get one from me. Mine are a bit more expensive, being made in the USA rather than China, but at least they work reliably.Are you going to source a nice little geared reduction starter for it ?
https://www.ccw-tools.com/WOSP-LMS7...er-Reduction-Gear-Starter-Motor__p-78030.aspx
Not cheap, but probably great for starting tired old motors
I extracted the starter out of the ID19B quite easily. I pulIed the exhaust manifold off but didn't have to undo the clutch cable as I pulled the high pressure pump completely out.
I logged onto Citroen Classics but they state - -
DUE TO A HIGH NUMBER OF PROBLEMS WITH THIS PARTICULAR MODEL OF STARTER, WE HAVE TEMPORARILY REMOVED THEM FROM SALE WHILST WE IDENTIFY THE PROBLEM AND LOOK AT ALTERNATIVES.
So for the moment I'm stuck and have to look around. I wonder if the one you suggest, Shane, is a 10 tooth starter and I wonder if there are any other contacts around to buy one - - - actually 2.
It is now Sunday - - listening to Macca. Michael's been working on his 1923 Buick ute and he reminded me of the new starter that was made up for his 1924 or so Hupmobile. This was from a place in Castlemaine so if this Covid thing is lifted I might take the 2 starters down and see what they think. A flurry of snow this morning. Atleast the container in which the 2 cars are is a bit warmer than the "garage shed" where this computer is - - as I sit typing in my fingerless gloves. Wanting to keep the house free of such modern clutter as a computer, one wonders sometimes if this was a sensible decision.
John
Marketplace:John Titus - Citroen SM Wiki
Last edited:
Thanks John,
Looking at your photo, is yours a 10 tooth starter for the 1965-1969 cars ??
John
Correct, this one has the "big" 10-tooth pinion for the early 5-main bearing engines (although I can also supply one with a 9-tooth pinion).
Thanks, John.
It looks like I'm going with 2 from Citroen Classics that Darrin can do as a deal with the rest of the order he is sending me.
It is good to know of the products that you do.
John
Through this Covid I’m getting plenty done. The D Special is waiting on new valves which we’ll put on the good ID20 head. The late starter motor that I got from Steeley of Just Cits is in, shown in pic.
On both the 1968 ID19B of which I’ve taken pics and the 1968 Safari I’ve taken the exhaust manifolds off and I am ready to install the 10 tooth starters coming from Citroen Classics in England. On both these cars I extracted the bolts which hold the starters. To get the long bolts out I undid the steering racks on the driver’s side and loosened the clamps on the passenger side. This enabled me to lift the rack high enough to extract the bolts.
To extract the bottom bolts on each car I had to file the brake callipers just enough to let them pass. I then brazed 12mm nuts onto the top heads of the bolts. From now on I won’t have sleepless nights thinking that the bolt heads might be stripped when undoing because of the very shallow heads.
In the close up pic I have marked the bolt heads with “white out” and shown where I filed the brake calliper.
Going shopping we took the big 6 - - - and the B2 awaits its next run.
Appreciative of all the help to get me this far. Not being in a D for a while has me looking forward to getting our “modern” cars back on the road.
Oh yes, I got the alternators back from "Antique Auto Electrics" at Lockwood near Bendigo. I thought that the one out of the Safari was the best but the “slip ring” had been turned down so far that the bakelite was showing. This makes sense as it seemed to just charge enough for some time but apparently there wasn’t enough charge to make the generator light go out. I had 2 more alternators of which one came up beautifully and the other I’ll keep as a spare as the bearings need doing sometime.He charged me $280 for re-building the good one and superficially cleaning up the spare including straightening the "fan blades" and fixing it to go.
I have a new one coming from Citroen Classics in England that will be my GOOD SPARE.
John
On both the 1968 ID19B of which I’ve taken pics and the 1968 Safari I’ve taken the exhaust manifolds off and I am ready to install the 10 tooth starters coming from Citroen Classics in England. On both these cars I extracted the bolts which hold the starters. To get the long bolts out I undid the steering racks on the driver’s side and loosened the clamps on the passenger side. This enabled me to lift the rack high enough to extract the bolts.
To extract the bottom bolts on each car I had to file the brake callipers just enough to let them pass. I then brazed 12mm nuts onto the top heads of the bolts. From now on I won’t have sleepless nights thinking that the bolt heads might be stripped when undoing because of the very shallow heads.
In the close up pic I have marked the bolt heads with “white out” and shown where I filed the brake calliper.
Going shopping we took the big 6 - - - and the B2 awaits its next run.
Appreciative of all the help to get me this far. Not being in a D for a while has me looking forward to getting our “modern” cars back on the road.
Oh yes, I got the alternators back from "Antique Auto Electrics" at Lockwood near Bendigo. I thought that the one out of the Safari was the best but the “slip ring” had been turned down so far that the bakelite was showing. This makes sense as it seemed to just charge enough for some time but apparently there wasn’t enough charge to make the generator light go out. I had 2 more alternators of which one came up beautifully and the other I’ll keep as a spare as the bearings need doing sometime.He charged me $280 for re-building the good one and superficially cleaning up the spare including straightening the "fan blades" and fixing it to go.
I have a new one coming from Citroen Classics in England that will be my GOOD SPARE.
John
Attachments
Last edited:
I drilled & tapped the odd thread into the new starter and adapted a bracket to the engine similar to the original so I am ready to install the new 10 tooth starter into the '68 Safari.
I hooked up the heavy positive lead to the starter terminal and at the other end I pushed the positive terminal onto a spare battery.
I then hooked up a negative jumper lead from the negative of the battery to the body of the starter.
I pushed the solenoid (the one with plastic cover at battery) and with a test light checked that the positive was lighting up at the starter which it did.
While still manually actuating the solenoid at the battery I bridged this main positive terminal at the starter with the spade terminal of the starter solenoid close by which made the starter operated as it should.
My query is - - Why isn't this bridged out all the time as when one hits the starter button inside the car the solenoid on top of the battery is actuated and if bridged out ( spade term. on solenoid to positive heavy term. on starter) the starter works as it should.
The two, not one, of the small wires which are also connected to the solenoid at the battery are positive as soon as the battery terminal is fitted on. I might have thought that one of these would only become live when the top solenoid is actuated as this wire would go - - with the large cable, to the starter with this small wire going to the starter solenoid spade terminal.
In the 2nd pic the top smaller starter is out of the D special that I replaced with a new one.
Any enlightenment, John
I hooked up the heavy positive lead to the starter terminal and at the other end I pushed the positive terminal onto a spare battery.
I then hooked up a negative jumper lead from the negative of the battery to the body of the starter.
I pushed the solenoid (the one with plastic cover at battery) and with a test light checked that the positive was lighting up at the starter which it did.
While still manually actuating the solenoid at the battery I bridged this main positive terminal at the starter with the spade terminal of the starter solenoid close by which made the starter operated as it should.
My query is - - Why isn't this bridged out all the time as when one hits the starter button inside the car the solenoid on top of the battery is actuated and if bridged out ( spade term. on solenoid to positive heavy term. on starter) the starter works as it should.
The two, not one, of the small wires which are also connected to the solenoid at the battery are positive as soon as the battery terminal is fitted on. I might have thought that one of these would only become live when the top solenoid is actuated as this wire would go - - with the large cable, to the starter with this small wire going to the starter solenoid spade terminal.
In the 2nd pic the top smaller starter is out of the D special that I replaced with a new one.
Any enlightenment, John
Attachments
These are undoubtedly derived from the 9-tooth starter (with a 10-tooth pinion substituted). Late BVM cars lack the battery-mounted relay and so the starter switch is what supplies voltage to the solenoid via a separate solenoid wire. It is easier to mass produce one starter and have the user add the jumper where needed (or attach a solenoid wire as necessary) than it is to manufacture two different starters.
So does this mean that the most efficient way is to put a wire from the heavy duty + terminal of the starter to the spade + terminal of the starter solenoid ??
Thanks, John.
Yes. A jumper with a ring terminal on the positive post and a spade to the solenoid will make the starter compatible with the battery mounted relay.
The ’68 Safari and ID19b are coming along. As the heat shield was missing for the ID19b starter I made one. The job on this car is easier as the exhaust manifold is in one piece and where it fits onto the downpipe it is secured with a flange ring.
On the ID21F Safari motor I found it necessary to undo the hydraulic pump and to disconnect the clutch cable for better access. I renewed the clutch cable while I was at it as it was partly frayed.
So it won’t be long till I finish assembling these two. Because the battery carrier is on the right on this era of cars there was more to be undone but with patience I am getting there. The reconditioned alternator is also in.
I’ve been fiddling with the D Special also and will get stuck in after these two are done - - - - - re the other thread.
Thanks again for the help, John
On the ID21F Safari motor I found it necessary to undo the hydraulic pump and to disconnect the clutch cable for better access. I renewed the clutch cable while I was at it as it was partly frayed.
So it won’t be long till I finish assembling these two. Because the battery carrier is on the right on this era of cars there was more to be undone but with patience I am getting there. The reconditioned alternator is also in.
I’ve been fiddling with the D Special also and will get stuck in after these two are done - - - - - re the other thread.
Thanks again for the help, John
Attachments
Last edited:
I have now re-installed the ID19b exhaust manifold. This is quite a lot simpler to the one on the ID21F Safari having the 2 piece manifold.
I will now put the heat shield on as I have done on the Safari.
Also one can see the difference in carburettors.
John
I will now put the heat shield on as I have done on the Safari.
Also one can see the difference in carburettors.
John
Attachments
It's the differences in water pump body that i am noticing. the ID19 has the casting ready for fitting a centrifugal regulator. The safari engine has a different casting. I don't think I've ever seen one of those simpler castings before and, if anything, would have expected it to be on both cars. I had a 1969 ID19b and don't recall what the casting was like on mine.
Hooray hooray. The ’68 ID19B is purring away beautifully.
It was February when we were stuck with a car parked in front of us and not being able to clutch start the car after the starter gave up.
Shane’s wife who is very nice offered assistance but knowing what the problem was, we waited for the parked car to disappear and then clutch started it. From there we crank started the car a few times before getting it to where we wanted in the shed.
The fan going full blast to extract smoke as oil on exhaust etc burns away.
John
It was February when we were stuck with a car parked in front of us and not being able to clutch start the car after the starter gave up.
Shane’s wife who is very nice offered assistance but knowing what the problem was, we waited for the parked car to disappear and then clutch started it. From there we crank started the car a few times before getting it to where we wanted in the shed.
The fan going full blast to extract smoke as oil on exhaust etc burns away.
John
Attachments
The Safari started easily as I threw a bit of petrol down the carbi. Pump is going fine - - no leaks.
The Alternator light isn’t going off. This is the one I had reconditioned so I’ll ckeck that I’ve got it wired correctly. There are 3 wires. One goes to the positive of the battery - - one is a spade terminal that goes somewhere and the 3rd goes on a small bolt terminal- - - so I’ll have a look tomorrow. I've got a multi meter so I'll check with that - - if I know what I'm doing ???
Both the Safari and the ID19B are hemmed in by the D Special with the head off so I’ll have to get onto that.
John
The Alternator light isn’t going off. This is the one I had reconditioned so I’ll ckeck that I’ve got it wired correctly. There are 3 wires. One goes to the positive of the battery - - one is a spade terminal that goes somewhere and the 3rd goes on a small bolt terminal- - - so I’ll have a look tomorrow. I've got a multi meter so I'll check with that - - if I know what I'm doing ???
Both the Safari and the ID19B are hemmed in by the D Special with the head off so I’ll have to get onto that.
John
Last edited: