EXTRACTING 68 SAFARI STARTER NEED REPLACEMENT

gilberthenry

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Over the last few days I have been working on removing the starter from our 1968 Safari. The starter died recently.

I need a starter that fits this and am told that the later starters which can be bought new won’t fit in these earlier cars so I’m wondering if someone out there has one of this type - - even if the condition is questionable.

Also, I have undone the 3 long bolts on the right and the one on the rear left where it bolts onto the motor (unlike the late type that doesn’t have this mounting). I have started to “jimmie” the starter but so far it won’t budge. I’m wondering if there is another mounting bolt that I’ve missed.

Once I hopefully get this done I will have to do the same job on our 1968 ID19B shown in the background of the pic. Our Sunbeam Alpine has been needed while these 2 cars are immobile.

Thanks, John
 

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In 1968 and 1969 (sept 67 to about September 69) the flywheel had 95 teeth and the pinion that engaged with it had 10 teeth and thereafter the flywheel had 123 teeth and pinion only had 9 teeth. That might be what someone meant when they said a new one won't fit.

Also, I can see in your 'SAF-STARTER-3' photo that you have removed a bolt that holds the 'waist' of the starter to the block. there is another one of those bolts on the bottom side of the starter. That might be why you can't remove it.

Darrin at Citroen Classics in the UK sells a modern, high torque starer with a 10 tooth pinion - so the are available.
 
There are three long bolts that secure the starter. It appears that you only have removed two!
A good auto elec may be able to repair your existing starter!
 
By the way. the starters for the DS21s (2175cc engines) are longer - which is why they have the extra bolts to the block to support them - in addition to the three at the nose. The modern, high torque starters are small and compact and don't rely on those bolts, but will still fit your car . A modern starter will still fit your car - as long as the pinion has 10 teeth.
 
Please disregard my above reply regarding bolts. If it is like my CX it looks as though you got the top rear bolt to the engine block, but you have missed the second one that is below the starter casing.
 
Please disregard my above reply regarding bolts. If it is like my CX it looks as though you got the top rear bolt to the engine block, but you have missed the second one that is below the starter casing.

Thanks Gerry and Budge. Yes I did undo the 3 long bolts and the top left one so today I will do the left bottom - - I presume from under the car. I am having trouble pulling the bottom long bolt out as it hits the brake caliper but it will probably come out once I have loosened the starter.
The reason that I want to pull it all the way out is that I am thinking that I will braze the top hex part cut off another bolt so that the hex will become longer. I was terrified the whole time that I would strip the heads of the long bolts as they only protrude about 2-4mm. I really think this is a design fault as for someone like me, if the hex top became stripped one would be demolishing things with a grinder to get the long bolt out. My hat goes off to all past Citroen mechanics in navigating the workings of these complex cars.
It makes me think that I might have been better sticking with the "long stroke" ID's like brother Michael has which are generally simpler to work on. So there we are.
I am pleased to hear that there might a new starter available if I have a problem getting this overhauled. If I manage to find another starter I could get 2 done at the same time.

Thankyou for the feedback. In this Covid lockdown what could be more "fun" than working on cars.

Also - - it is interesting how the exhaust manifold was cracked and fell apart at number 4. This might be why things are black around the place from exhaust fumes. I can't say I ever noticed any extra noise or fumes. Luckily I have another one. This is the type that has 2 manifolds for the 4 exhaust "ports".

John
 
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what a tranquillooking place to contemplate all things D, but I guess some gloves would come in handy. : ) And a beanie!
 
It's probably a bit late for you, but I discovered a long time ago that a 1/4' socket set was an essential piece of equipment for working on a DS. There is usually just enough room to swing the smaller tools rather than the much larger 1/2' tools or open end spanners.
 
It's probably a bit late for you, but I discovered a long time ago that a 1/4' socket set was an essential piece of equipment for working on a DS. There is usually just enough room to swing the smaller tools rather than the much larger 1/2' tools or open end spanners.
Thanks Shane and Faulksy, - - yes I have been using the 1/4" sockets as I think it would have been impossible without - - specially the lower bolt.

It IS cold at the moment so one tends to go in for "smoko" to warm up and then have another session. I might have to jack the car up a bit more as I didn't count on having to get under it - - other than retrieving dropped spanners with my telescopic magnet.
Just turning the radio on to hear how much longer this Covid lockdown will go for.
John
 
getting the pump out of the way would make the job alot easier too. Except its more work.
 
Not only a 1/4 ratchet, but one of these is so handy when doing this job.
As well as the normal ratchet action, it also allows you to twist the handle to turn the socket. Not cheap, but we’ll worth it.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sidchro...2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0

I purchased the 47peice 1/4" socket set from ALDI. Its bloody brilliant. All the bars are wobble bars. The bits are great. all those hard to reach places you have torx, allen, pozidrive and normal screwdriver bits. I use it all the time.

http://offers.kd2.org/en/au/aldi/pclER/

Your looking at $25bucks for the entire thing. The only problem is you will need to wait for it to come back.
 
Thanks Gerry and Budge. Yes I did undo the 3 long bolts and the top left one so today I will do the left bottom - - I presume from under the car. I am having trouble pulling the bottom long bolt out as it hits the brake caliper but it will probably come out once I have loosened the starter.
The reason that I want to pull it all the way out is that I am thinking that I will braze the top hex part cut off another bolt so that the hex will become longer. I was terrified the whole time that I would strip the heads of the long bolts as they only protrude about 2-4mm. I really think this is a design fault as for someone like me, if the hex top became stripped one would be demolishing things with a grinder to get the long bolt out. My hat goes off to all past Citroen mechanics in navigating the workings of these complex cars.
It makes me think that I might have been better sticking with the "long stroke" ID's like brother Michael has which are generally simpler to work on. So there we are.
I am pleased to hear that there might a new starter available if I have a problem getting this overhauled. If I manage to find another starter I could get 2 done at the same time.

Thankyou for the feedback. In this Covid lockdown what could be more "fun" than working on cars.

Also - - it is interesting how the exhaust manifold was cracked and fell apart at number 4. This might be why things are black around the place from exhaust fumes. I can't say I ever noticed any extra noise or fumes. Luckily I have another one. This is the type that has 2 manifolds for the 4 exhaust "ports".

John
Was there a washer fitted under the head of the long bolt? Also the other bolts? There should be as it makes keeping a socket on the hex a lot easier and also stops the hex grinding into the aluminium casting when tightening!
 
Was there a washer fitted under the head of the long bolt? Also the other bolts? There should be as it makes keeping a socket on the hex a lot easier and also stops the hex grinding into the aluminium casting when tightening!
No Gerry, there were no washers. I was thinking about washers and thought that if the washer is smaller than the inside of the hex sides the socket, yes, 1'4" drive, would drop over that little bit more. I'm just talking about the 3 long bolts as they were the only problem ones.
I did undo the pump but just unscrewed the pipe "nut" a bit so I could move it about. Also, steering "pipe" was undone & pulled out so I could put it to the side & also took away the clutch cable & of course the battery box which is on the driver's side with these earlier models was undone and "lifted"to the front - - a bit - - - - & gear selector pipe undone & moved to side.
Anyway, we all know that too much needs to be extracted to get the job done - - - what else to do during Covid.

Long bolt is shown next to a nut of normal size. It was only a 1/4" drive socket that fitted over it and into the recess as I would have had to grind a ring spanner to get it thin enough - - all the time worrying that I would wear the hex to round. Yes, if there would have been washers it would have cleared the bolt head out of the recess so I'll keep that in mind.

Also pic of manifold. Not a recent break as the blackness shows.

Thanks, John
 

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That is the normal sized head for those bolts. A washer will make it stand more proud of the surface. A thin wall socket 3/8 drive is what I use on my CX working from underneath the car . Believe me it is fiddly to get at on a CX! BUT it can be done!
 
Thanks Gerry.
This wasn't fun - - I was all but stuck under the car but I got the bottom bolt undone - - a good test for claustrophobia !!!
So now I need to decide. Do I buy a new starter that weighs about 4 kg like the one that came out of the D Special with ten teeth from Citroen Classics or whatever or do I fix this hefty 10 kg monster that I've just pulled out - - - that puts all this extra weight on the engine mount.

Just looked up Citroen Classic
Starter Motor, 10 tooth pinion, until 10/69. New part, no exchange required.

Starter Motor, 10 tooth pinion, until 10/69. New part, no exchange required.


DX53301T

£195.25

and also - -

Starter relay on battery (battery on right hand side: 1967 - 1969)

Starter relay on battery (battery on right hand side: 1967 - 1969)


E004P, DM52401A, DY52401

£58.30

Iwould say this is the way to go - - 2 lots for the two 1968 cars.

John
 

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Definitely go for the new.
Before these geared aftermarket ones were available I had a couple of original ones overhauled by an auto electrician.
They lasted less than a year after that.
The problem is not just bearings and brushes. It's the decay of the varnish insulation on the windings, caused by heat (not only from long slow cranking, but from exhaust manifold heat as well).
As the insulation decays, the windings effectively start to short out, increasing the current draw, creating more heat, and reducing torque.
The only cure is a rewind...... and these days that's very expensive, even if you can find someone to do it.

For a 100% concourse restoration, yes OK you'd do it, but for a regular driver, absolutely definitely categorically go the new one.
 
Definitely go for the new.
Before these geared aftermarket ones were available I had a couple of original ones overhauled by an auto electrician.
They lasted less than a year after that.
The problem is not just bearings and brushes. It's the decay of the varnish insulation on the windings, caused by heat (not only from long slow cranking, but from exhaust manifold heat as well).
As the insulation decays, the windings effectively start to short out, increasing the current draw, creating more heat, and reducing torque.
The only cure is a rewind...... and these days that's very expensive, even if you can find someone to do it.

For a 100% concourse restoration, yes OK you'd do it, but for a regular driver, absolutely definitely categorically go the new one.

Okay, I'll go this way. I imagine going to Citroen Classic is good for me as they should be reliable. I haven't done this before so I'll see how I go.
Aren't the pommies lucky to have so many passionate people in workshops around them. Hopefully they'll come through this "freedom" Covid episode.
I'll tidy up and then start this scenario all over again to extract the starter out of the '68 ID19B.
I'm not complaining. I have had many years of service out of these cars so things will go wrong eventually. In truth - - they don't owe me a penny.
So I have the D Special apart waiting for new valves to put on the good '69ID20 head, the Safari waiting for a new starter - - the '68 ID19B that will soon be apart and then our "new" '28 Packard that did a head gasket -- waiting for a gasket and getting the head skimmed.
I'm not bragging because for someone who hates doing mechanical work I have yet to put them back together.
When I was under the car I thought that if I was squashed there might be an ad saying " DS's for sale - - all in different stages of - - disrepair - - going cheap !!!

John
 
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