Which medium-sized 4WD would you buy ?

[DoubleChevron]

I don't mean to start one of those overly technical debates, but I am not sure how anything is better than 3 locked diffs, at least from the point of view of traction. All those fancy electric and sensing doo-dads I think are useful, but they just seem to be making it easier to hop from high traction surfaces to low ones and back again, without having to shift levers and lock hubs etc. Not sure I see how a fully locked 4WD gets stuck because it has two wheels in the mud. Any case, the reality is that if you try hard enough you can get anything stuck, and will at some point. So nothing's infallible, and mostly it's about how you use the equipment.

It wouldn't ... but that's is only any good in the hands of someone that knows how to use it competently. On the 4wd forums, the air lockers seem to cause endless issues (or maybe it's just people with problems that ever post about them). I'm thinking, anyone can turn a steering, with zero offroading experience (ie: 99.999% of 4wd owners) would be far better off with torque biasing diffs rather than locking (ie: dangerous, will stop the vehicle turning) diffs.

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[PeterT]

PS. LPG in 4WD is for people who dropped out of school early and don't understand 3rd grade arithmetic. They bought the car for the powa or manhood compensating factors and then realised they don't have the money to fill it up. They don't understand that converting to LPG takes away some of that powa they paid for, so they pay some more to give some of it away.

As usual, you're talking sh!t. I've had two 4.2L Patrols on LPG, which between them have done over 800000Km. The metallurgy in the head is perfect for LPG and any loss in power is minimal. With 85L of LPG and 70L of petrol I could go anywhere. The real reason for not favouring LPG today is that taxis are mostly all hybrid now. As a result, Shell no longer sells LPG. Thus the amount of servos selling LPG halved this year.

As for diffs, modern small and med size 4WD have electronic locking front diffs. Eg D40 Nivara, Hilux etc. Regardless of what hub locks you have, if the front diff solenoid breaks, it's all over. There's a lot to be said for being able to manually engage 4WD.

 

[Beano]

This thread has been a journey of self-discovery regarding what I actually need.
Mostly I'll be using it on-road, but since I haven't been to Fraser Island or Moreton for 30 years, I should do so before I get too old.

Like I said. Get a Subaru Liberty or similar if all you want is some sort of 4WD and forget about the rest (diff locks, transfer cases, hubs, etc).

I may well do just that. Mostly I will be using it on-road.

Er....what would be similar to a Subaru Liberty ?

 

[robmac]

This thread has been a journey of self-discovery regarding what I actually need.
Mostly I'll be using it on-road, but since I haven't been to Fraser Island or Moreton for 30 years, I should do so before I get too old.




I may well do just that. Mostly I will be using it on-road.

Er....what would be similar to a Subaru Liberty ?

At your budget a possibly Forester or most likely an Outback.

 

[Beano]

Or a Honda CR-V ?

Occasionally I see these cars advertised on damaged vehicles auctions.....Pickles or Mannheim.
If you're careful, it's possible to buy one which is not even on the Written Off Vehicle Register....the inspection for which I have heard is a real pain to go through....perhaps a bit stricter than a Safety Certificate and costing $400.

I'll look for something with dents which don't worry me and lowish kilometres.

 

[Stuey]

Later Pajeros are also of monocoque construction, an interesting difference to the other 'proper' 4WD's.

The later pajeros are good things and like the range rovers..... brother has the Pajero ... with vapour injected gas .. the 3.9litre V6 ( probably just a re-cammed magna motor). It is far better than you would have any reason to expect. It also uses shitloads of fuel, especially when towing. Not a lot less than the v8 in my range rover (though probably generates considerably more power in the process).

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[FIVEDOOR]

Or a Honda CR-V ?

Occasionally I see these cars advertised on damaged vehicles auctions.....Pickles or Mannheim.
If you're careful, it's possible to buy one which is not even on the Written Off Vehicle Register....the inspection for which I have heard is a real pain to go through....perhaps a bit stricter than a Safety Certificate and costing $400.

I'll look for something with dents which don't worry me and lowish kilometres.

The inspection has nothing to do with road safety, it is about certifying the bona fides, trying to stop re-birthing of stolen cars. RWC is different kettle of fish altogether.

 

[robmac]

The inspection has nothing to do with road safety, it is about certifying the bona fides, trying to stop re-birthing of stolen cars. RWC is different kettle of fish altogether.

On the budget the OP stated. Land Rover defenders et al are "most serious 4WD" within the budget and probably represent the logical choice based solely on maintaining budget.

If one could consider owning and driving one. Well, that's another story.

 

[DoubleChevron]

On the budget the OP stated. Land Rover defenders et al are "most serious 4WD" within the budget and probably represent the logical choice based solely on maintaining budget.

If one could consider owning and driving one. Well, that's another story.

defenders are sought after and worth big $$$$ ... he'll never get one for that sort of money (they only stopped making them 6months ago). An old series vehicle maybe.... they'd have to be almost as bad as a ford raider to drive though

if you want cheap and old ... but decent to drive. you really can't go past a shitty old range rover. They weren't a toorak tractor for no reason ( mine were sold new into wealthy areas of sydney ..... that start of the middle aged women in wank tanks era no doubt ). They really do ride and drive well if not modified and "enhanced" (ie: buggered up). eg: try almost any 1970's -> 1990's 4wd compared to one and you'll understand what I mean. Sure the old crusiers and patrols were seriously tough vehicles. Onroad they certainly weren't passenger car like comfortable to drive though.

 

[4cvg]

At your budget a possibly Forester or most likely an Outback.

I tend to agree. Well made, decent off road, very decent on road &, given your price range, as likely as anything else (& more likely than most options) to be in acceptable mechanical condition for the high mileage examples you'll be stuck with. Lots of used bits in wreckers too.

Manual, not auto, is recommended at this age.

cheers! Peter

 

[John Handley]

Sadly, Range Rovers of all ages have a terrible reputation for unreliability and expensive repair bills. It doesn't sound like Beano would consider one, but I reckon that would be done at considerable risk.

Beano: I thoroughly encourage the idea of a Fraser Island trip. It was one of the best holidays I've been on. Suggest sometime in Autumn to avoid crowds. Driving up the beaches is not a problem in itself, despite what some people say. The horror stories are pretty much all about folk who tried to drive through any seawater at all, or got broke down or bogged near the incoming tide.

Regards,
John

 

[DoubleChevron]

Sadly, Range Rovers of all ages have a terrible reputation for unreliability and expensive repair bills. It doesn't sound like Beano would consider one, but I reckon that would be done at considerable risk.

Beano: I thoroughly encourage the idea of a Fraser Island trip. It was one of the best holidays I've been on. Suggest sometime in Autumn to avoid crowds. Driving up the beaches is not a problem in itself, despite what some people say. The horror stories are pretty much all about folk who tried to drive through any seawater at all, or got broke down or bogged near the incoming tide.

Regards,
John

Yep ... That's for sure... Only for people that like to tinker with there own cars (any old car is).

the older foresters and outbacks held there value really well. There fuel economy is pretty poor for a petrol vehicle of there size ... but wow, compared to a full sized 4wd ... there the best economy car ever made :roflmao: My brother inlaw recently purchased one ... His was closer to $23K ... um .. would it be 5 years old .. not sure. but you'd be looking very old and very high milage for the price range he's looking at. Less than 200,000kms will probably only be possible if it's a renault

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[schlitzaugen]

LPG has been great for the last few decades. You certainly don't "loose" much power, especially with the modern liquid injected gas vehicles. If you look at cost per km rather than litres per km. They are often cheaper than deisels to run... There biggest issue is fuel range. You won't find gas in central australia either.

The old range rover here, it's has slightly less power running on gas.... Not so much that you would notice which fuel it is running on... and that is a simple mixer ring vapour system. Remember how bad diesels were 10+ years ago ?? That is why large capacity petrol engines on lpg were so popular.

LPG has a way higher octain rating than most fuels... Imagine how much power you'd extract from a dedicated gas falcon motor for example if you stuck a small turbo on it .... It would be staggering!

seeya,
Shane L

Octane rating doesn't say anything about energy. It says something about how much you can compress the gas before detonation. Think about diesels if you want to understand what that means. Keep in mind the highest energy content is - you guessed it - in diesels.

Not to say that your comparison is completely mislead. Adding a turbo basically means you're raising the atmospheric pressure. Kinda like driving a normal (i.e. non-turbo) car on a planet with a denser atmosphere. The same gain would be registered by any fuel depending not on their octane rating but on their energy content. Go have your car dynoed on a frosty morning and then go again on a hot day see if you spot the difference.

Which doesn't really help the case for LPG. In fact, the energy density is (much) lower in LPG so I don't know how anyone can argue you gain power (litre per litre of fuel). If you want to compare mass, it's theoretically the same per kilogram (but you have less mass of LPG in the same volume compared to petrol).

Perhaps because as I mentioned above, they're grade school dropouts.

What these people do not understand is that you can generate more power from something with less energy but you have to burn more of it per unit of time (basically burn it quicker).
Which means you need to go through more of it. Sure, if government tax helps you, you might make a saving. But converting a car from petrol to LPG, you always lose, don't fool yourself.

Ah, if you were talking a designated LPG car from factory, maybe. But even then, the laws of Physics still apply, still lower energy density, yadda yadda, you get the picture.

 

[PeterT]

Correctly tuned, the gain in running a higher CR more than compensates for the difference in calorific value. That's probably the term that alluded you. Eg methanol. It has half the calorific value of petrol but running 14:1 allows for far higher outputs. Similarly for E85.

 

[DoubleChevron]

Correctly tuned, the gain in running a higher CR more than compensates for the difference in calorific value. That's probably the term that alluded you. Eg methanol. It has half the calorific value of petrol but running 14:1 allows for far higher outputs. Similarly for E85.

The other reason is pollution ... LPG burns far more cleanly than petrol or diesel cars. If the government cared in the slightest ( like they pretend they do ) ... LPG would be tax free... the vehicles would be registration free ... and anyone that runs natural gas vehicles would be a few cents a litre everywhere (natural gas needs big heavy tanks with limited capacity though).

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[John Handley]

Sure, if government tax helps you, you might make a saving. But converting a car from petrol to LPG, you always lose, don't fool yourself.
.

I don't think that is right. You use more LPG per kilometre but it costs a lot less. In the end it costs you less cents per kilometre. If you pay to convert a car to LPG, you just have to do enough kilometres after that for those saved cents to add up to the conversion cost. After that you are better off. The LPG tax is slowly being increased and I don't know if it will still have this cheaper to run advantage in the end. But up till now, I reckon LPG costs about 70% as much as running on petrol. Something around that number.


Regards
John

 

[jaahn]

Hmmm ! LPG ?

I don't think that is right. You use more LPG per kilometre but it costs a lot less. In the end it costs you less cents per kilometre. If you pay to convert a car to LPG, you just have to do enough kilometres after that for those saved cents to add up to the conversion cost. After that you are better off. The LPG tax is slowly being increased and I don't know if it will still have this cheaper to run advantage in the end. But up till now, I reckon LPG costs about 70% as much as running on petrol. Something around that number.
Regards John

Hi
My . I had a colleague who went all the way around Aussie a few years back in a Nissan Patrol with a camper on the back and 4 people. He looked at an LPG conversion as it was a "bit" thirsty but decided it would not pay for itself. Spent 6 mths on the road, all logged and prices of fuel as he went. When he came back he did the sums. Still looked like it would not have paid for the conversion !! SO there is one story !!

Currently LPG is a very valuable export, as you all know, so with Taxis going off it there will be little available after a while. But even now with the extra tax Little Johnny put on it and the price of petrol dipping down to lows there is no saving. That cheap easy alternative fuel has slipped away for corporate profit and no reward either for us owners of the original resource. Bl**dy government sold us down the tube again

WE could use natural gas at home with a compressor unit, as has been tried some places. Gas cost is low. But again the corporate resistance is against us, and our Government is just not interested.
Jaahn

 

[PeterT]

My Patrol does approx. 14-15c/Km on LPG and approx. 20-22c/Km on petrol. Well and truely paid off the cost of the conversion long ago. Back then, there were government grants, thus it was easy to break even if you did only 15-20K per year. There's no way I'd convert another vehicle. The price differential with petrol is too close.

Additionally, whilst a small cost, servicing costs are reduced. The oil seems to last forever on straight LPG and comes out the same colour as you put it in.

What does it cost to run your car per km?

 

[DoubleChevron]

My Patrol does approx. 14-15c/Km on LPG and approx. 20-22c/Km on petrol. Well and truely paid off the cost of the conversion long ago. Back then, there were government grants, thus it was easy to break even if you did only 15-20K per year. There's no way I'd convert another vehicle. The price differential with petrol is too close.

Additionally, whilst a small cost, servicing costs are reduced. The oil seems to last forever on straight LPG and comes out the same colour as you put it in.

What does it cost to run your car per km?

THe V8 land rovers would probably be averaging 20L/100 running lpg... given all these cars already have gas fitted, the fitting cost isn't an issue (there wouldn't be many 10+year old thirsty vehicles that are not already converted). So long as the tags are fitted, you can get any gas system working by fitting a new converter quite easily if it's old and sad.

It's worked well in ballart for the last few years. LPG is almost always about 50% of the price of ULP

 

[PeterT]

Not in NSW. LPG Varies from 70c/L in the city to 95c/L in the country.