Canola Oil ...

'the fact that it's an id and not a ds makes the decision a lot easier.'


How so mr ds 21bvh?

Little would reduce the value of a half decent decab. But all else being equal, where you had 2 side by side, I'd wager the original would have it.

I couldn't give a hoot really about the money value anyway - only where it reflects the preservation of an original car.

Tim
 
Middlemoon.1 said:
'the fact that it's an id and not a ds makes the decision a lot easier.'


How so mr ds 21bvh?


Tim
Click to expand...

Well that's easy .... 'Cos there is no-where near as many seals to change!!

I'll keep a record of everything that needs to be done for you, then when you upgrade yours to LHM you'll know exactly what needs to be done.

seeya,
Shane L.
 
I recall Castrol's website noted GTX for pre-95 cars, whereas GTX2 was for later models. We've been though the oil issue before, but later oils have different anti-wear additives. An older formulation, say, SG may be better. Like older versions of Dexron, you'd probably find it's not strictly 'approved' any more, so you buy a later oil with boosted ZDDP or one that would have conformed to an SG rating.
 
DoubleChevron said:
How threads wander ... :)

I seem to recall my father saying you could buy drums of glycol when the Renault 10's were new for next to nothing. They used to run pure glycol in them buy the sounds of it. Then everyone else clued onto it and it's price massively increased in a short period of time.
seeya,
Shane L.
Click to expand...

Glycol was used extensively in the cooling systems of Spitfires Hurricanes Lancs' and anything else that was powered by Merlin engines. Not to mention the Daimler Benz and Junkers engines on the opposite side of the stoush. Automotive industry picked up on it not long after but many manufacturers were too cheapskate to use it in their cooling systems.
Cheers Gerry:cheers:
 
DoubleChevron said:
Well that's easy .... 'Cos there is no-where near as many seals to change!!

I'll keep a record of everything that needs to be done for you, then when you upgrade yours to LHM you'll know exactly what needs to be done.

seeya,
Shane L.
Click to expand...

Well Shane that's not nearly so silly as it sounds. Make that list, put with it what original items you have left. Put both in a box bolted to base of boot. Label clearly 'early original Heidelberg Id rescue pack'.

Because you'd be bloody insane not to preserve the original specs of one of these rare cars if you had the opportunity.
:wink2:

Tim
 
bladders

Brother John replied on my behalf "worst thing I ever did". The evidence was, the rubber muck coating the outside of the filter inside the hydraulic tank. Looking under the bonnets of the "padock" ID's, I noticed both had been fitted with a pipe soldered into the top of the hydraulic tank. This was done to fit a hose to a small tyre tube or dare I say it, a wine bladder. Unlike a conventional car with it's brake master cylinder "just sitting there" an ID when started up "breathes in" half a tank of air. That's alright if you are living in Innaminka but we all know the humidity that's present in the air in QLD. Reading the web sight that Donat provided, it seems that Dot4 is more hydroscopic than Dot 3. While I don't have problems running the old R363 in Mike Neil's old French ID, I won't yet go over to Dot 4 but as I have the sealed system operating (wheelbarrow tyre tube sitting inside spare wheel), I feel that I'm getting minimal effects, whatever the weather. I laughed when Tom Eyears showed me his trick with the wine bladder. As with the "paddock cars", LHS cars were often fitted with sealed systems. There is evidence of LHS tanks rusting on the inside. I wonder if we're getting a bit "squeaky clean" and so ,don't like the look of a tyre tube or wine bladder sitting under the bonnet. I think that it's true that as you get older, you don't care so much how you look. Opening the bonnet of the ID might give you a laugh, but I bet "she's" happy, every time she takes a deep breath. Michael
 
Yes and Michael the wine bladder talk reminds me That a quality cab sav for lhs./ Chardonnay for lhm also works a treat with a dash of castor. No further lubrication necessary for the driver.

Tim
 
Middlemoon.1 said:
'the fact that it's an id and not a ds makes the decision a lot easier.'


How so mr ds 21bvh?

Little would reduce the value of a half decent decab. But all else being equal, where you had 2 side by side, I'd wager the original would have it.

I couldn't give a hoot really about the money value anyway - only where it reflects the preservation of an original car.

Tim
Click to expand...

Hi Tim,

As Shane said - just simpler to do as there are less parts.

I completely respect the opinion of those who would like to stick with the original fluid. But one of the reasons I don't have a early car is the fluid - so I have a clear aversion to it.

I put it in the same category as using modern oils or modern coolant. I know plenty disagree, but it's an improvement which far outweighs any concerns about originality.

Cheers,

Mark...
 
Goodo BVH....but may I just re-state for the record...and I only do this for any young id owners / or older newcomers (and there have been a few recently) who want to maintain the original...

The 'original' fluid you describe is no longer available though (well...apparently now o/s but very expensive). I last used LHS2 in about 85 - and even then the formula had changed from the earlier days I believe. There are a range of replacements for the LHS system fluids since the 80s. Proponents say these variants can have less negative effects.... I never really had many negative effects...but I did invest in getting it right early on.

I know suspicion abounds about LHS systems, and I think this goes back to the great DS antipodean fear that originated from the first DSs coming to Australia in the 50s. There were problems initially. Certainly these servicing issues had been addressed by the early sixties. My ID was a 62 - recently iinherited by Donat.

I had no problems running my car through the 80s / 90s (well - within reason) but now EVERYTHING is available readily from overseas to your doorstep and there are a number of very competent local operators/rebuilders to keep an LHS system running virtually as new if one so desires - I never had that like today. LHS owners are 'laughing' these days. Once replaced, or well serviced, remember these cars are incredibly reliable. Remember their achievements, their endurance over many many years. Just recently, a South African early LHS ID was highlighted on this forum that had completed around 1000,000 Ks - see Corne's story.

And the costs for such servicing and parts supply equates to very standard servicing...it's all provided by enthusiasts for enthusiasts so it's pretty moderate as far as careful motoring goes, and cheap as far as classic ownership goes.

As to the suspicions, I can only report my experience of nearly 30 years of very happy motoring though nearly all states of Australia with the original set up. When I did pull Harriet out of a paddock she had sat there for 15 years, so I did need to 'commission' her. Cleaned her up, got her running, tinkered with correctors, flushed out etc. The opposition to my using the original LHS system was just as present then as it is now - but there were also those who could re-assure me...and I'm glad they did because Harriet was their inheritance.

My experience also seems to be mirrored by quite a number of original early ID / DS owners who have taken the opportunity to set up and maintain an early system and thereby maintain the original character of their cars. Many note the significance of the early ID and particularly the Aussie ID and - evidenced partly on this forum - a few 50s DS 19s. Then there are the Godfathers of D ownership in Aus whose early cars are just an inspiration. They all had issues getting set up in the beginning....Try to suggest to any of them that they should refit with LHM gear from D Specials and the like.

It's not that I think it's a sin to convert, I've tried to be clear about that. For some it has just been the path and there's an end to it. But I just can't stand it when people say you'd be crazy not to, or that there is no choice. There clearly is, and sanity doesn't come into it....well I suppose there are plenty of ordinary modern car drivers who would call one insane to drive an early citroen full stop. Like Mr Kennedy, however, I prefer my 'insanity' over such values - and to me this extends to keeping an early car 'as it was'.

In all of this, I take 'conversion to LHM' as meaning significantly alterning original vehicle fabric. If effort is undertaken not to do this...well there's really no argument from me as, yes, the fluid itself is neither here nor there.

As to your suggestion that the benefits of conversion far outweigh the loss of originality...well I guess that depends on what steps are being taken, and what you value.

Citroen improved their cars as time went on, and the LHM system was part of that development. The early ID was a cracker of a car - few here would disagree, many beyond here would disagree. 'What's that ugly thing?!" I would occasionally get in a supermarket car park. Poor taste, born of ignorance. Kids always managed to see them as 'cool' though - compared to many adults.

So shoot me, but I want to see preserved cars that represent their period of development - especially when you consider the Continental and General Story, so that I can experience and enjoy that as closely as possible and so that others can also.

But that is my hobby - my interest. I would not bother going to car races - can't stand 'em. I would not cross the road to look at a hotrod or a new Ferrari. And you should see what I live in and what I'm doing to keep things original...It's just what I like and I love it. It takes effort, research and sympathy...but it's so much fun and you only live once.

Tim
 
Last edited:
Middlemoon.1 said:
Goodo BVH....but may I just re-state for the record...and I only do this for any young id owners / or older newcomers (and there have been a few recently) who want to maintain the original...

The 'original' fluid you describe is no longer available though (well...apparently now o/s but very expensive). I last used LHS2 in about 85 - and even then the formula had changed from the earlier days I believe. There are a range of replacements for the LHS system fluids since the 80s. Proponents say these variants can have less negative effects.... I never really had many negative effects...but I did invest in getting it right early on.

I know suspicion abounds about LHS systems, and I think this goes back to the great DS antipodean fear that originated from the first DSs coming to Australia in the 50s. There were problems initially. Certainly these servicing issues had been addressed by the early sixties. My ID was a 62 - recently iinherited by Donat.

I had no problems running my car through the 80s / 90s (well - within reason) but now EVERYTHING is available readily from overseas to your doorstep and there are a number of very competent local operators/rebuilders to keep an LHS system running virtually as new if one so desires - I never had that like today. LHS owners are 'laughing' these days. Once replaced, or well serviced, remember these cars are incredibly reliable. Remember their achievements, their endurance over many many years. Just recently, a South African early LHS ID was highlighted on this forum that had completed around 1000,000 Ks - see Corne's story.

And the costs for such servicing and parts supply equates to very standard servicing...it's all provided by enthusiasts for enthusiasts so it's pretty moderate as far as careful motoring goes, and cheap as far as classic ownership goes.

As to the suspicions, I can only report my experience of nearly 30 years of very happy motoring though nearly all states of Australia with the original set up. When I did pull Harriet out of a paddock she had sat there for 15 years, so I did need to 'commission' her. Cleaned her up, got her running, tinkered with correctors, flushed out etc. The opposition to my using the original LHS system was just as present then as it is now - but there were also those who could re-assure me...and I'm glad they did because Harriet was their inheritance.

My experience also seems to be mirrored by quite a number of original early ID / DS owners who have taken the opportunity to set up and maintain an early system and thereby maintain the original character of their cars. Many note the significance of the early ID and particularly the Aussie ID and - evidenced partly on this forum - a few 50s DS 19s. Then there are the Godfathers of D ownership in Aus whose early cars are just an inspiration. They all had issues getting set up in the beginning....Try to suggest to any of them that they should refit with LHM gear from D Specials and the like.

It's not that I think it's a sin to convert, I've tried to be clear about that. For some it has just been the path and there's an end to it. But I just can't stand it when people say you'd be crazy not to, or that there is no choice. There clearly is, and sanity doesn't come into it....well I suppose there are plenty of ordinary modern car drivers who would call one insane to drive an early citroen full stop. Like Mr Kennedy, however, I prefer my 'insanity' over such values - and to me this extends to keeping an early car 'as it was'.

In all of this, I take 'conversion to LHM' as meaning significantly alterning original vehicle fabric. If effort is undertaken not to do this...well there's really no argument from me as, yes, the fluid itself is neither here nor there.

As to your suggestion that the benefits of conversion far outweigh the loss of originality...well I guess that depends on what steps are being taken, and what you value.

Citroen improved their cars as time went on, and the LHM system was part of that development. The early ID was a cracker of a car - few here would disagree, many beyond here would disagree. 'What's that ugly thing?!" I would occasionally get in a supermarket car park. Poor taste, born of ignorance. Kids always managed to see them as 'cool' though - compared to many adults.

So shoot me, but I want to see preserved cars that represent their period of development - especially when you consider the Continental and General Story, so that I can experience and enjoy that as closely as possible and so that others can also.

But that is my hobby - my interest. I would not bother going to car races - can't stand 'em. I would not cross the road to look at a hotrod or a new Ferrari. And you should see what I live in and what I'm doing to keep things original...It's just what I like and I love it. It takes effort, research and sympathy...but it's so much fun and you only live once.

Tim
Click to expand...

Well said Tim..
A similar thing happened to Honda S600 and S800 in the 80's... complicated engine and hard to get parts so en masse toyota and other donks went in !!! the mistake was made for the engine was at the heart of what was so good of the car...
fast forward and now the old original engines are being sought out to return these cars to original..
Why hasn't the Citroen community got to that point yet??
personally if you want LHM then buy a later car...there's still far more available than the 1960's models
with so few left they should be sympathetically restored or better yet...left totally orginal if possible as they will only be original once....
 
Middlemoon.1 said:
Goodo BVH....but may I just re-state for the record...and I only do this for any young id owners / or older newcomers (and there have been a few recently) who want to maintain the original...
Tim
Click to expand...

Hi Tim,

Thanks for sharing your thinking and for taking the time to put forward your position. It's nice to see your passion particularly with respect to the older cars.

I love all D's - but without getting into a war about it LHM is simply a better option as it does not corrode the system when neglected or when it leaks (and neglected is the key).

There is a reason there are less early cars around and it's mainly because of the fluid, the rest of an early car is as bullet proof as a late car.

There is no real ride quality difference - if there is, it's due to the sphere damper settings, not the fluid.

However, on the other side, I don't see the point in changing a perfectly running early car to LHM either so there is a part of me which agrees with you. The issue comes when people have experimented with different fluids and sadly paid the price.

The point I am trying to make is if I was doing a car from scratch (as Shane is) there is no way on this earth I would reseal it for LHS.

And BTW - my name is Mark, not BVH - you may have missed that...:)

All the best,

Mark...
 
Thanks Mark,

If it were are question of changing o-rings etc only - as i say I'm not wedded to any fluid - I agree as outlined. This hasn't typically been the approach, however as you would know. If it is, I agree with you.

The scarcity of earlier cars is about rust, neglect or disinterest. Those who have cared for them have been rewarded. Most you will note have maintained their original hydraulic system. This is fortunate.

A classic car is a different prospect to a general runabout, and usually owners are willing to go a bit of extra distance in their care because they serve a suite of interests apart from getting to a to b - so they defy comparison with later cars. I hope I didn't offend with my use of your Nom de plume...

My very best,

Tim
 
Hi Tim,

Absolutely not offence taken re my name - I just did not know if you had spied it after a couple of emails using my username - that's all....:)

I really admire your passion for the early cars - the smell of an LHS car takes me straight back to my childhood.

All the best,

Mark....:)
 
Middlemoon.1 said:
Thanks Mark,

If it were are question of changing o-rings etc only - as i say I'm not wedded to any fluid - I agree as outlined. This hasn't typically been the approach, however as you would know. If it is, I agree with you.

The scarcity of earlier cars is about rust, neglect or disinterest. Those who have cared for them have been rewarded. Most you will note have maintained their original hydraulic system. This is fortunate.

A classic car is a different prospect to a general runabout, and usually owners are willing to go a bit of extra distance in their care because they serve a suite of interests apart from getting to a to b - so they defy comparison with later cars. I hope I didn't offend with my use of your Nom de plume...

My very best,

Tim
Click to expand...

I found some oil for you :

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PENRITE-...ccessories&hash=item2a159688b4#ht_2192wt_1041

I hope your not running that new fangled multigrade detergent oil in your cars :eek: I've just been out fitting seals to the old ID19 that are a nice pretty green colour :) ..... the cars starting to feel less rusty already.... Lovely rusty preventing leaks everywhere to be sure in the near future :roflmao:

That reminds me, I must chase up some more LHM from the club, I've had about 4people ask me for some over the last month.

seeya,
Shane L.
 
gerrypro said:
Put me on the list for LHM please Shane. I need enough for a CX Dry Refill.
Cheers Gerry:cheers:
Click to expand...

Oh gee's

make that 5people.... :eek: I'll try to arrange at least maybe 25litres stock for here then (it'll either go in 2weeks or last 5years :clown: ).

seeya,
Shane L.
 
What's the price of LHM in Australia at the moment? ours went up recently now it is $6 a litre... Still kind of cheap I think, I've heared of people here who pay $18 if not more!!

Cheers
Corne
 
LHM is very expensive in Australia unless you know where to buy it. The Citroen Car club of Victoria is selling it for $13.00 a litre at the moment (gee's I hope they haven't changed the price in the last few months now I've said that :clown: ). You need to be a club member to buy it though.

Depending on where you are in Australia you could try Onshore Oils (queensland) or EAI in melbourne (I've never dealt with EAI, but apparently there quite good).

It's posible I may get some club LHM stock here later this week. It's likely most of it will be gone within a few weeks though. I'll need to buy 5litres myself for a dry fill for the ID19, Gerry is after a dry fill for the CX ( another 5litres ), and there was 4 others after LHM too...

seeya,
Shane L.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top