The dry sump Gordini motor.

[Frans]

My only experience with owning dry sump systems has been with a number of motorcycles. I've only ever once had a drain back issue and that was due to some grit under a pump valve on a Harley.
While I appreciate your ingenuity, why don't you just fit a mechanical anti-drainback check valve that companies like Moroso make for that very purpose?
I'd hate to see all your hard work get destroyed due to an electrical hiccup.
Just my 2 cents.

View attachment 240548

Geez...that popped my bubble. I never knew that was available. I'm aware of non-returns in water lines that operate with a flap and that in turn close on a seat. I've come across 2 types, one with a brass-to-brass seat that isn't leakproof and the other one is the flap closing on a rubber seal. I never considered that because of the temperature that might damage the seal or else the rubber might not be compatible with the oil.

That brings me to another question. I noticed at the track that the Formula Ford guys turn the engines over for what seems forever and ever before they turn the ignition on and the car fires up. Why would they do this? I always thought that it was to pump the sump dry. Maybe it is to pump the sump dry but then why don't they use this check valve?

Have you seen this valve before? Is it straight through without restrictions or resistance in the sense of a spring that needs to be sucked open?

Thanks for that and I hope that there is clarification on my questions.

Regards, Frans.

 

[Frans]

I had a quick read on internet and I found this a few times....

Can I use a check valve in the oil feed line to keep oil from running back to the engine when not in use?​

No, this can result in catastrophic engine failure. Most check valves will not fully open with vacuum and they may not open at all. This creates a restriction in flow which will cavitate the oil pump and starve the engine of oil. If the oil gravity drains to the pan spin the pump with a drill to circulate the oil back to the dry sump tank.

The check valve mentioned is for use in oil coolers and accumulators only.

That opens the discussion a bit. I will carry on with other mounting preparations for so long.

Frans.

 

[Greenpeace]

Geez...that popped my bubble. I never knew that was available. I'm aware of non-returns in water lines that operate with a flap and that in turn close on a seat. I've come across 2 types, one with a brass-to-brass seat that isn't leakproof and the other one is the flap closing on a rubber seal. I never considered that because of the temperature that might damage the seal or else the rubber might not be compatible with the oil.

That brings me to another question. I noticed at the track that the Formula Ford guys turn the engines over for what seems forever and ever before they turn the ignition on and the car fires up. Why would they do this? I always thought that it was to pump the sump dry. Maybe it is to pump the sump dry but then why don't they use this check valve?

Have you seen this valve before? Is it straight through without restrictions or resistance in the sense of a spring that needs to be sucked open?

Thanks for that and I hope that there is clarification on my questions.

Regards, Frans.

This is a shot of inside a Moroso valve. They have a lightly spring loaded seat. Keep in mind the threads you can see are 1/2" pipe threads so the orifices are a bit bigger than you may think.
Moroso make oil pumps in the style you are using, so these valves are designed to keep up with the oil requirements of a high RPM V8.
I think there's a couple of things going on with the F1 cars. They have to ensure there is warm oil throughout the engine, and the firing rpm is much higher than a "regular" engine. So it has to be spun up to a relatively high rpm before it has sufficient air/fuel flow to support combustion.
I just saw your last post. I've only seen these on the return line to the tank to stop the oil draining back via that route. The valve is opened by pressure not vacuum in that instance.
Remember your tank can drain back through either the supply or the return hose.

 

[Greenpeace]

Just had another thought, I presume the pump will feed straiģht into a full flow oil filter?
A good quality, spin on full flow filter, has a non return valve built into it. In theory the oil shouldn't drain back past this, unless there is an awful lot of head pressure.
I'd be more concerned about the return line.

 

[COL]

This is a shot of inside a Moroso valve. They have a lightly spring loaded seat. Keep in mind the threads you can see are 1/2" pipe threads so the orifices are a bit bigger than you may think.
Moroso make oil pumps in the style you are using, so these valves are designed to keep up with the oil requirements of a high RPM V8.
I think there's a couple of things going on with the F1 cars. They have to ensure there is warm oil throughout the engine, and the firing rpm is much higher than a "regular" engine. So it has to be spun up to a relatively high rpm before it has sufficient air/fuel flow to support combustion.
I just saw your last post. I've only seen these on the return line to the tank to stop the oil draining back via that route. The valve is opened by pressure not vacuum in that instance.
Remember your tank can drain back through either the supply or the return hose.

Just a note if using US of A fittings, the thread will most likely be NPT, just something to keep in mind.

 

[PeterT]

It’s never been an issue for me. I know 1-1.5L drains back into the dry sump pan. It disappears very quickly once the engine is started.

Is 1/2 NPT close to the ID of 12AN?

I have a friend who has his ecu setup so the engine won’t fire until there is enough oil pressure from the dry sump pump. It takes an unusual amount of time and you start to assume something is wrong. Engines have long been instantly firing up and living to tell the tale.

 

[COL]

Is 1/2 NPT close to the ID of 12AN?

BSP threaded fittings are similar to NPT threaded fittings except for an important difference, the threads per inch (TPI).

Also, the angle across the flanks of threads (if you sliced the fitting in half long-ways and measured the angle from root to crest to root) is 55 degrees, instead of 60 degrees for NPT.

 

[Greenpeace]

A -12 transportation or refrigeration hose is 5/8" id, (-12 hose for other uses is 3/4" id) obviously a 1/2" NPT is nominally 1/2" id.
-12AN to 1/2" NPT fittings are commonplace as the majority of filter relocation kits for the US V8s use these sizes (sometimes -10AN).
Just thinking too, as to whether Franz's return line is submerged, or whether it discharges at the top across a baffle plate?
A lot of the bike systems have a submerged return line, which of course enables siphoning from the tank if there is an issue with the pump.
This is the inside of a Harley oil tank.
Note how the supply and return lines point into the opposite corners of the tank. This is to minimise the risk of the supply line drawing in aerated oil.

 

[dauphproto]

You cannot use a Check valve as the flow of oil is in the intended direction, not reversed.
With wet sumping the worst that happens is that when not in use the motor fills with oil, keeping all the bits you want oily, oiled
It makes sense to crank with the ign off to make sure of oil pressure and to lower the level in the engine, before giving it the go.
F1 engines crank over for ever before they are started, so many sensors need to check off before ignition
Its a very inventive use for a Honeywell valve Actuator, I'm just a bit tech adverse on my competition cars, reasoning that the simpler it is the less can go wrong.......
It doesn't always work.........

 

[Frans]

The check valve will work on the return line however that is on the top of the tank and not needed. That should clear up the question Greenpeace asked. My gadget is in the supply line.
My thoughts were that the spring tension inside the check valve would have been enough to stop the reverse flow because it would have been installed in the reverse position to allow flow to the pump.
My objection to filling the sump and then cranking the engine before it fires up is the small light weight battery that I am using. It is just a small 18Ah battery that is used for backup power in alarm systems. If I have to go back to a big battery the extra weight will be sort of a step backwards.
A lot of truth in dauphproto’s theory of keeping it simple.
Does this mean that I’m going ahead with my gadget? I think so. This discussion has taken us on an interesting journey.
Regards. Frans.

 

[PeterT]

My battery isn’t much bigger, maybe 36Ah? I certainly don’t get many attempts at starting it before I have to jump with a spare battery.

 

[COL]

The check valve will work on the return line however that is on the top of the tank and not needed. That should clear up the question Greenpeace asked. My gadget is in the supply line.
My thoughts were that the spring tension inside the check valve would have been enough to stop the reverse flow because it would have been installed in the reverse position to allow flow to the pump.
My objection to filling the sump and then cranking the engine before it fires up is the small light weight battery that I am using. It is just a small 18Ah battery that is used for backup power in alarm systems. If I have to go back to a big battery the extra weight will be sort of a step backwards.
A lot of truth in dauphproto’s theory of keeping it simple.
Does this mean that I’m going ahead with my gadget? I think so. This discussion has taken us on an interesting journey.
Regards. Frans.

My battery isn’t much bigger, maybe 36Ah? I certainly don’t get many attempts at starting it before I have to jump with a spare battery.

On the battery side of things, get some Anderson plugs and leads; use an auxiliary battery that is only connected for the starting of the engine before the race, then disconnect. The only extra weight will be an Anderson plug and a short length of cable.

 

[Greenpeace]

I have two cars with the same style of check valve mounted in the fuel lines before their mechanical fuel pumps. Both valves sit slightly higher than their vehicle's respective fuel tanks, so don't receive any head pressure. The 5 psi petrol pumps don't have a problem pulling them open with suction, so I would have thought it would be a no brainer for a 70 psi oil pump (with assistance from head pressure) to perform the same task?

My idea of keeping the idea simple but foolproof, would be a cable operated mechanical ball valve, with the cable operated by a lever on the dash. When the dash lever has the oil valve in the closed position it folds down over the engine's start button/key. I would also have the lever on the ball valve orientated so that it moves downward into the open position.

I did MX, speedway and drag racing for many years combined, and only had one mechanical failure in all that time.
Electrical problems and gremlins however, well that's another story.

At the end of the day it is Franz's car, and the idea certainly has merit.
My only suggestion is, if you go ahead with it, would be to use the very best quality bolt on wiring connectors you can find, there's no place for push on terminals in an application as critical as this.

 

[PeterT]

On the battery side of things, get some Anderson plugs and leads; use an auxiliary battery that is only connected for the starting of the engine before the race, then disconnect. The only extra weight will be an Anderson plug and a short length of cable.

Exactly how I do it.

 

[JohnW]

It’s never been an issue for me. I know 1-1.5L drains back into the dry sump pan. It disappears very quickly once the engine is started.

Is 1/2 NPT close to the ID of 12AN?

I have a friend who has his ecu setup so the engine won’t fire until there is enough oil pressure from the dry sump pump. It takes an unusual amount of time and you start to assume something is wrong. Engines have long been instantly firing up and living to tell the tale.

Oil films are amazing. It isn't oil pump pressure that keeps the surfaces apart, but the feed does shift oil through the system, cooling to start with and ensuring a full film. I marvel at those old engines with drip feed or scoops on the conrods.

 

[dauphproto]

Think I need to fit Anderson plugs to The Dauph. I also have a very small battery, which is amazing for its size/weight, but won't crank the starter for extended periods.
You'll be able to recognise me as I go by Dragging an old tractor battery behind me!!!
Most bearing damage occurs at startup and the effects are cumulative. If you strip a hundred thousand mile motor and find it's coppered the shells, most likely it's all the dry starts over the years Oil pressure, Bmep and Rpm all go hand in hand.
Happy Motoring