PRV V6 Dyno Shootout Charts and Facts

PRV camshafts etc.

pugrambo said:
The PRV V6 was an engine that had basically 2 series.

the original PRV6 had different ignition timing for each cylinder bank.

This was because the block was set at 90 degrees and to try and get it to run smoothly

the 2nd series came in around 1986 and we got it in the volvo here and the renaults got it but we didn't get it in the pugs here, well not in RWD format anyway. the 605 got the even fire but they aren't a common car. anyway that's getting off track

these engines had the 30 degrees offset journals making them a 6 journal crankshaft instead of the 3 journal 120 degree crank in the odd fire and this was to give the even firing intervals of a 60 degree V6.

now then seeing as the PRV is OHC the LH is different from the RH that we all know and hence why when looking at the engine it makes sense to look at them as 2, 3 cylinder engines

makes sense to me as it always has done

Ad infinitum, two words from my last post.

Thanks for the refresher course on the evolution of the PRV6.
The technical description of the V6's having long been burnt into my mind after spending the years from 1973 to 1995 earning a crust as a mechanic with the main Volvo dealers in Perth, Adelaide and London.

I must take up on your reasons for the early V6 having different ign. timing for each cylinder bank with the intention of getting it to run smoothly.
The ignition was set up like this in order to match the sequence of the pistons arriving at or near top dead centre. It certainly wouldn't run smoothly if the ignition was arranged evenfire. I'm not being facetious here.
Various other ideas were implemented to even out the intake pulses. The "octopus" inlet manifold was later changed to a "log" manifold with the addition of a vacuum pump for the brake booster, so there must have been some strange goings on with this motor. There were two manifold balance screws on the log manifold, one was screwed out 5 turns the other 1.5 !

When the later "staggered crank" 280e V6 came along the ignition timing was changed, even fire, because the crank design meant the piston travel sequence was altered along with the cam timing as mentioned in my earlier post.
I am calling barleys on this subject otherwise ad infinitum will take over. :wink2:

Feel free to chat among yourselves :cheers:
 
OK gents,you're probably sick of this subject but I can't resist.I'm not up with the play on PRV V6's but I spent a lot of time on motorbikes in my younger days.So what's got me puzzled is this:Ducatis are a very smooth running bike and use a 90 degree V-twin.No primary vibration and secondary vibration is reduced to 35%.Triumph Tridents are a smooth running bike and use an in-line triple with a 120 degree crank.The only vibration from this layout is due to the rocking couple on the crank.If you put these two together into a 90 degree V6 there should be bugger all vibration.Basically only that due to the rocking couple,which is unavoidable in a V6 anyway.
So,what I want to know is why the hell there are supposed to be problems in getting a 90 degree V6 to run smoothly?
 
Ducatis don't run smooth at idle either

in fact i have been told by many people that a ducati should not idle for any length of time as it will destroy the bearings in the bottom end due to the thumping nature of the engine

the PRV's run very smooth once the engine is above idle but they are thumpy at idle
 
Platypus said:
OK gents,you're probably sick of this subject but I can't resist.I'm not up with the play on PRV V6's but I spent a lot of time on motorbikes in my younger days.So what's got me puzzled is this:Ducatis are a very smooth running bike and use a 90 degree V-twin.No primary vibration and secondary vibration is reduced to 35%.Triumph Tridents are a smooth running bike and use an in-line triple with a 120 degree crank.The only vibration from this layout is due to the rocking couple on the crank.If you put these two together into a 90 degree V6 there should be bugger all vibration.Basically only that due to the rocking couple,which is unavoidable in a V6 anyway.
So,what I want to know is why the hell there are supposed to be problems in getting a 90 degree V6 to run smoothly?

Uneven firing intervals. I don't think there is any problem with balance as such. The odd fire engines rev up to 8000 in modified form.
Graham
 
Platypus said:
OK gents,you're probably sick of this subject but I can't resist.I'm not up with the play on PRV V6's but I spent a lot of time on motorbikes in my younger days.So what's got me puzzled is this:Ducatis are a very smooth running bike and use a 90 degree V-twin.No primary vibration and secondary vibration is reduced to 35%.Triumph Tridents are a smooth running bike and use an in-line triple with a 120 degree crank.The only vibration from this layout is due to the rocking couple on the crank.If you put these two together into a 90 degree V6 there should be bugger all vibration.Basically only that due to the rocking couple,which is unavoidable in a V6 anyway.
So,what I want to know is why the hell there are supposed to be problems in getting a 90 degree V6 to run smoothly?


The PRV partners put out a paper for the SAE in 1976 which gives some interesting info on the 90 degree layout.
Briefly, the 90* is smoother than a 4 cyl of the same displacement (no suprises here) and only marginally rougher than a 60* v6 or inline 6 at 2200rpm. At 5500, the 90 deg layout is marginally smoother than the 60* or inline 6. At this speed, the 4 doesn't even come close.
Balancing is described in great detail, it is pretty clear that lack of vibration was considered very important.

http://home.planet.nl/~perotti/dcn/download/prv-v6manual.pdf

So what about the SM V6? Is anyone familiar enough to give us a rundown on this engine or any other oddfire v6- the Buick for example?

Farmerdave
 
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Ok,thanks all.So basically PRVs aren't all that rough then,just a bit lumpy at idle.Makes sense then.
Pugrambo,I might be wrong but personally I wouldn't put too much stock in that story about Ducatis having an idle so rough that they'll knacker bearings.Think about it.The idle is still smoother than a big single.I used to own a 450 Desmo and that bastard would hop backwards on the centrestand at idle! :roflmao: No way are the twins that rough.Sure they shake a little bit but the sound is lumpier than the crankshaft motion.The older (roller bearing) Dukes had fairly weak big ends anyway,so maybe that's where the story came from.
Thanks for that link farmerdave.Very interesting.It's wierd that the left and right cylinder banks have different valve timing.Ducatis sure don't run different valve timing on each cylinder! :confused:
 
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Ray Bell said:
Yes, but probably predating the Stanguellini...

Ray, GREAT photos!

I just bought a 205 SI so I can take the 505 PRV V6 off the road to do something beastly to the engine - twin-turbo or supercharge or something - and I also bought a portable garage hoist, and looking at those pics of yours makes me think that I should leave the 505 aside and make a car THAT pretty! Did you make the bodywork? And was it modelled on something else?

Cheers,
John Lane.
 
Greetings Frog Friends......

John Lane here from the states.
My turbocharged PRV six is one that brings many smiles.
I have not seen mentioned that one can easily fit the 93mm sleeves right into the Volvo B-280 even-firing engine........This gives three liters of displacement. Worth doing.

JL
 
JohnLane said:
Greetings Frog Friends......

John Lane here from the states.
My turbocharged PRV six is one that brings many smiles.
I have not seen mentioned that one can easily fit the 93mm sleeves right into the Volvo B-280 even-firing engine........This gives three liters of displacement. Worth doing.

JL

And if they were as easy to find in Australia as they are in the US, I would have done it already. Unfortunately, we didn't get the Eagle Premier or Dodge Monaco over here, so 93mm pistons and liners are limited to Peugeot 605s, Citroen XMs and the odd Renault Safrane.

Unless you would be willing to arrange some for me from the US? :D:D:D:D
 
Demannu said:
Unless you would be willing to arrange some for me from the US? :D:D:D:D

How much are you wiling to spend? All it takes is money.....How fast do you wanna go? :wink2:

Our friends at the local Dodge dealer tell me that the sleeves are no longer available. This means that you will likely have a better chance from your local Renault dealer. Unfortunately they like to sell them as a set of pistons and sleeves :mad: so that you will have a nice new set of ashtrays as you won't be using the cast pistons.

The Eagle Premier/Dodge Monaco cars are still common enough around here that the engines can be had as pull-outs for :2cents: affordable........They conveniently come with a pair of heads with Valves bigger then Volvo fitted in the B-280 along with intake ports that do not have the 'Swirl' feature that Volvo used to choke the B-280 to 140 horses so that it wouldn't be faster then the Turbo-4 that was offered alongside it. Lord knows that Volvo just could NOT have the Frenchie V-6 go faster then the turbocharged tractor mill!! :nownow:

John Lane
 
Alpine GTA V6 Turbo

The Renault Alpine A610 also had the 93mm sleeves. I bought a set of these recently from Renault in Australia. They were sitting in a warehouse in Melbourne. I don't know what they were doing here. I expect they were wrongly ordered for a Laguna, but they are the correct part No. for the A610.

I bought a Volvo B280E motor (760GLE) from the wreckers, that had a small burn on top that really only damaged the wiring mostly for $500 I think. Internally it was in excellent condition, and must have had minimal Klms.

I am in the process of building a reasonable engine for the GTA, but it won't be cheap. Chances are I could buy quite a good 205 Mi16 for the same money, and that is with me doing most of it myself. The heads are away now. I did the portwork myself. Using the Renault heads with Volvo valves and cams. 2975cc 8.6 to 1 13 Lb boost, hopefully without detonation.

It is currently 2450cc 8.6 to 1 11 Lb boost although the boost drops off above 5000 Rpm as the turbo is too small. The Volvo has 10mm longer stroke and it will have 2mm oversize bores to 93mm (A610). The Volvo cams have approx 1.5 mm more lift at the lobe, and I will be using these.


Loom $250
Motec M48 $2000
B280E Motor $500
R25 Turbo Motor $950
Ball Bearing Turbo $1800
Headwork, Big Seats,Springs $700
Balancing $230
A610 Pistons& sleeves $1800
Exhaust+Coating $500
Uprated clutch $500
Water pump $160
Gaskets&Seals $230
Tuning $400
Plat Plugs $100
Injectors S/H $300
Bearings & conrod sizing $250

$10 670






And I am sure there are things I have forgotten, or that will come out more expensive. And in the end it will just look like a standard motor, barring perhaps the turbo, but even then only if you have one to directly compare it against. Hopefully the difference will show up on the road.
 
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The 93mm slugs you have for your toy........Are they forged aluminum?

I broke a cast piston very early on in my having the Turbocharged V-6.
Two years later I broke a connecting rod. The rest of them came out 2-3mm shorter then they were when installed. This was NOT due to detonation. I strongly suggest your giving it stronger rods then the B-280 came with.

Are you going to use the B-280 crank for 2975cc's? I sure would. You will still have a rod/stroke ratio of two. Good stuff.

They are expensive to do but you will LOVE the results. I find 500+lb/ft at the wheels to be addictive.

Have fun with it.

John Lane
 
The A610 was a turboed engine, but the pistons are only a good quality casting, with drill holes around the oil ring and not a slot. Yes I am using the Volvo crank with the 10mm longer stroke. I admit I thought the std rods were decent, and they are the same as the rods on the Alpine turbo motor. I am not looking to make massive power and torque, I expect I will get what I get. If I find I need better pistons and rods, I will go to forged pistons and some Carillo (or copy) rods.
 
It seems there are a lot of people turbo charging these engines. Im curious tho as to why most people are using turbos over super chargers? Especially since supercharges are simpler and you miss out on lag.

Im thinking of getting a PRV v6 to work on myself and see what I can get out of it... I thought of getting the volvo motor (oddfire) since it came with injection. Tho I think the later EFI ones were all evenfire, I'll have to look more into it. I'd prefer oddfire because of the nice lumpy note. Tho, I've heard a lot of things against the volvo engines, and am wondering (beisdes being overly restricted and underpowered) if they are a lot weaker. Stories of broken conrods etc, which does happen when you modify things like that... but seems from the peugeot camp that there is a lot less stories of engine failures and the v6 is said to be 'bulletproof', which says more for it than what they say for the volvo motors.

I guess if it is possible a 2.6 peugeot v6 with 2.8 or 3L liners and pistons would be the go, keeping it oddfire if possible...
 
callipygous said:
I guess if it is possible a 2.6 peugeot v6 with 2.8 or 3L liners and pistons would be the go, keeping it oddfire if possible...

i have only ever heard of one 604 engine to put a hole through the block

it is possible to put the 91mm liners in the 604 block but you have to bore the block to do so as i did this for my last engine

the only reason i did it this way is that the volvo block i had was corroded and yes it is odd fire and i plan on staying odd fire
 
With so many engines being modified, I might end up with one of the very few bog-standard injected peugeot 2.6's.:)
 
The reason for turbo rather than supercharger is that it came this way, and so you don't have to do a lot of work with mounts and drives. Twin turbos makes sense, but the additional fabrication makes it prohibitive.

Mine will look std when finished.
 
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