Citroen GS Birotor
- Thread starter Haakon
- Start date
Haakon,
I just checked the Cit Classifieds Board as there was one for sale on there a few months back. One of the guys from the NSW CCC may be able to tell you who it was as this guy had a few things he was selling and some of them seemed to know him.
Unfortunately, that board has no archive facility so I can't do any better than that.
There was one for sale that an Adam Spencer was advertising at one stage. (Not sure if he was the guy from the TV show "Quantum") One of these cars also included a brand new (still in the box) rotary donk with it.
There has been one for sale at AAA in France for a while with I think it's 35,000klms on the dial but it's been there so long that it might be a pretty scarey price also.
eek! eek! eek!
Alan S
I just checked the Cit Classifieds Board as there was one for sale on there a few months back. One of the guys from the NSW CCC may be able to tell you who it was as this guy had a few things he was selling and some of them seemed to know him.
Unfortunately, that board has no archive facility so I can't do any better than that.
There was one for sale that an Adam Spencer was advertising at one stage. (Not sure if he was the guy from the TV show "Quantum") One of these cars also included a brand new (still in the box) rotary donk with it.
There has been one for sale at AAA in France for a while with I think it's 35,000klms on the dial but it's been there so long that it might be a pretty scarey price also.
eek! eek! eek!
Alan S
As per my post on Aussie Cits for Sale, the contact for this car is Jason Hantos on 0407 281 269 or jason@statusquo.com.au.
Yes it is still for sale AFAIK.
Yes it is still for sale AFAIK.
Were they sold here new? I thought they were very limited and wouldn't have been...Alan?
Stuey
Stuey
Stuey,
There was only 14 of them ever made. To the best of my knowledge, the "Adam Spencer" car was the real Mc Coy and I understand was priced accordingly. Apparently, when PSA was formed (a 'la Peugeot buying out Citroen) and it was decided to scrap the rotary idea due to the manufactured "oil crisis" the idea was to recall & 'recycle' them. However it seems that more got away than were ever returned.
AA Garage in France had one for quite some time with very low mileage on it and I think Andre Pol had one or two although I'm sure at least one of his was a rotary conversion type car.
The car that Craig speaks about is apparently one that was done out here in Australia as a conversion and from all accounts is particularly well done and whilst it might not be a genuine M-35 it is apparently so professionally finished that it is nigh on impossible to pick from the real thing with one exception; it is right hand drive which none of the original ones were but by the same token, this also maked it exceedingly rare. If I had the brass, I'd buy it.
FWIW, here's a good site about them.
<a href="http://www.monito.com/wankel/citroen.html" target="_blank">http://www.monito.com/wankel/citroen.html</a>
Alan S
P.S. It's rained here in the past two days which means the trees are going to grow. More trees, more places to park more Cits - Yew liddle bewdy!! dance dance dance cheers! roll_lau
<small>[ 26 August 2002, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Alan S ]</small>
There was only 14 of them ever made. To the best of my knowledge, the "Adam Spencer" car was the real Mc Coy and I understand was priced accordingly. Apparently, when PSA was formed (a 'la Peugeot buying out Citroen) and it was decided to scrap the rotary idea due to the manufactured "oil crisis" the idea was to recall & 'recycle' them. However it seems that more got away than were ever returned.
AA Garage in France had one for quite some time with very low mileage on it and I think Andre Pol had one or two although I'm sure at least one of his was a rotary conversion type car.
The car that Craig speaks about is apparently one that was done out here in Australia as a conversion and from all accounts is particularly well done and whilst it might not be a genuine M-35 it is apparently so professionally finished that it is nigh on impossible to pick from the real thing with one exception; it is right hand drive which none of the original ones were but by the same token, this also maked it exceedingly rare. If I had the brass, I'd buy it.
FWIW, here's a good site about them.
<a href="http://www.monito.com/wankel/citroen.html" target="_blank">http://www.monito.com/wankel/citroen.html</a>
Alan S
P.S. It's rained here in the past two days which means the trees are going to grow. More trees, more places to park more Cits - Yew liddle bewdy!! dance dance dance cheers! roll_lau
<small>[ 26 August 2002, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Alan S ]</small>
Do you mean that only 14 RHD models were built? Total production of the GS BR was 892. So it seems logical that a few escaped as RHD.
The car currently owned by Jason is not a conversion at all. It was built, as previously stated, as a new car. New everything. So yes it is "one of a kind" in that it was built in the 80s and was built in Aus. I think it could be regarded as genuine as it was built to spec with parts ordered from Citroen - strangely enough including the complete engines (one spare).
I'm sure I had that info regarding the number in captivity.
They wanted to put them through the crusher when they decided not to pursue the production because they didn't want the hassle of stocking spare parts.
Perhaps my old memory keeps spitting this "14" up as an estimation of how many they think could be left. There are a couple of guys in Europe who seem to know almost every M35 left on the planet.
What I said about this particular car was my understanding of what was said by someone associated with it when someone insinuated that it was basically a "kit car" when it was advertised for sale originally and weren't too complimentary about the way it had been done even though they hadn't seen the car. Others backed up his contention that it's a very nice vehicle.
Alan S
They wanted to put them through the crusher when they decided not to pursue the production because they didn't want the hassle of stocking spare parts.
Perhaps my old memory keeps spitting this "14" up as an estimation of how many they think could be left. There are a couple of guys in Europe who seem to know almost every M35 left on the planet.
What I said about this particular car was my understanding of what was said by someone associated with it when someone insinuated that it was basically a "kit car" when it was advertised for sale originally and weren't too complimentary about the way it had been done even though they hadn't seen the car. Others backed up his contention that it's a very nice vehicle.
Alan S
Ahh, now that coffee has sunk in, I realise we are talking about two different models here grasshopper.
If you are talking M35, you are in fact talking about the prototype that lead to the production of the GS Birotor (back me up here Paul). There were "many" M35s built as prototypes and they sort of look like an overgrown Ami with a two door fastback body. These ARE rarer than rockin horse poop as most of these were scrapped.
It is also true that many of the GS birotors sold were recalled with a buy back option as the 70's fuel crisis hit. The smart owners knew they were onto something and kept their cars. Therefore around 2 to 300 survive apparently.
Original post by Ckeller
If you are talking M35, you are in fact talking about the prototype that lead to the production of the GS Birotor (back me up here Paul). There were "many" M35s built as prototypes and they sort of look like an overgrown Ami with a two door fastback body. These ARE rarer than rockin horse poop as most of these were scrapped.
In our video downloads there is a very imformative clip on the Wankel engine, as Craig points out for Citroen, the test bed M35 was some Ami derivative, and then later used in the GS, the download is about 40megs and unfortunately in German (OK if you understand German) but well worth the download.
<a href="http://www.aussiefrogs.com/video/Citroen%20Media/wankel.rm" target="_blank">Wankel / Citroen</a>
Cheers
Chris
If you are talking M35, you are in fact talking about the prototype that lead to the production of the GS Birotor (back me up here Paul). There were "many" M35s built as prototypes and they sort of look like an overgrown Ami with a two door fastback body. These ARE rarer than rockin horse poop as most of these were scrapped.
In our video downloads there is a very imformative clip on the Wankel engine, as Craig points out for Citroen, the test bed M35 was some Ami derivative, and then later used in the GS, the download is about 40megs and unfortunately in German (OK if you understand German) but well worth the download.
<a href="http://www.aussiefrogs.com/video/Citroen%20Media/wankel.rm" target="_blank">Wankel / Citroen</a>
Cheers
Chris
Hi Craig,
You are right about the M35 - it used a single rotor wankel - and is indeed even rarer than a BiRotor. (Must have been a little screamer, while the engines lasted!)
The BiRotor is a wonderful thing - the problem for me is that it is so rare that it is scary to use - add to that an engine that you have to warm up before you can pull off and it is really only a car for special occasions.
Jason's car is in very good condition - it has only had three owners AFAIK, since it was built - and the BiRotor is generally so over-engineered that (apart from the engine) it will last for ever - CX running gear in a GS body.
That said apparently it is quite amazing at 8000+ rpm!!
Paul
You are right about the M35 - it used a single rotor wankel - and is indeed even rarer than a BiRotor. (Must have been a little screamer, while the engines lasted!)
The BiRotor is a wonderful thing - the problem for me is that it is so rare that it is scary to use - add to that an engine that you have to warm up before you can pull off and it is really only a car for special occasions.
Jason's car is in very good condition - it has only had three owners AFAIK, since it was built - and the BiRotor is generally so over-engineered that (apart from the engine) it will last for ever - CX running gear in a GS body.
That said apparently it is quite amazing at 8000+ rpm!!
Paul
How's this for appetisers??
<a href="http://www.monito.com/wankel/citroen.html" target="_blank">http://www.monito.com/wankel/citroen.html</a>
dance dance
Alan S
P.S. "and the BiRotor is generally so over-engineered that (apart from the engine) it will last for ever - CX running gear in a GS body."
Didn't Citroen at one stage (prior to the Peugeot takeover) make noises along the lines that they were cosidering the Wankel in the CX but due to the fuel crisis and the rotary's appetite for fuel, then go for the pushrod 2000 then 2.2 and so on?
<small>[ 27 August 2002, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Alan S ]</small>
Yep Alan,
I think they were planning a triple rotor wankel eek! for the top of the line CX - the BiRotor would have gone in the more basic ones - you can see why the fuel crisis scared them off - even Mazda only tried 3 rotors for a very little while - I have always wanted to hear a triple rotor Cosmo - told it sounds a bit like a distant 747! (probably about the same fuel bills).
Paul
I think they were planning a triple rotor wankel eek! for the top of the line CX - the BiRotor would have gone in the more basic ones - you can see why the fuel crisis scared them off - even Mazda only tried 3 rotors for a very little while - I have always wanted to hear a triple rotor Cosmo - told it sounds a bit like a distant 747!
(probably about the same fuel bills).Paul
Ah how the Birotor gets all the "hear say" and tales going! Who was Adam Spencer? The car was put together by a long time and much respected Citroenist here in Australia who shall remain nameless (unless he is reading this). The car is a joy to drive once above 7000 rpm (yes I've been there)and there is an M35 in Australia also. The M35 is a single rotor engine.
The GS Birotor was a catalogue item (shown in the normal GS sales brochures along with the G Special, and X3) and as such many more than 14 Birotor were built and sold.
The GS Birotor was a catalogue item (shown in the normal GS sales brochures along with the G Special, and X3) and as such many more than 14 Birotor were built and sold.
Has anyone got any actual experience on NSU wankel motors? I just wonder if the Citroen GS motor was as reliable and powerful as the Ro80 motor. Yes I said reliable. They are a shitload better then the automotive jorno's keep trying to tell us. Dad has driven his Ro80 since 1975 (including several trips to Perth from Victoria), and its on its 3rd engine. It would only be on its second if a thermostat hadnt failed and popped a few o rings between a rotor housing and end plate (the equivalent of a blown head gasket). Its also fine on fuel - yes its thirsty for a 1.1 litre engine, but not for a 125 BHP engine, and its dragging around 1400 Kg through a torque converter, power steer etc.
Was talking to an engineer at the factory in Neckersulm in Germany (now building Audi A6 and A8) and two thirds of engines sent to NSU for warranty claims were sent back with a "there is nothing wrong you idiot" written on them. People would asume a dud engine when they got a flat battery. In short, dont believe the hype.
Do believe the hype when they say NSU built an amazinly fast and smooth engine, that would have been just as at home in a Citroen then an NSU. I salivate at just the thought of a triple rotor CX. I bet it was the same engine NSU built a few prototypes of for a hotty version of the Ro80. Injected, 1.7 litres, around 8000 rpm and 180 BHP. Yum.
Was talking to an engineer at the factory in Neckersulm in Germany (now building Audi A6 and A8) and two thirds of engines sent to NSU for warranty claims were sent back with a "there is nothing wrong you idiot" written on them. People would asume a dud engine when they got a flat battery. In short, dont believe the hype.
Do believe the hype when they say NSU built an amazinly fast and smooth engine, that would have been just as at home in a Citroen then an NSU. I salivate at just the thought of a triple rotor CX. I bet it was the same engine NSU built a few prototypes of for a hotty version of the Ro80. Injected, 1.7 litres, around 8000 rpm and 180 BHP. Yum.
"Ah how the Birotor gets all the "hear say" and tales going! Who was Adam Spencer"
It got you out of the closet didn't it member #12 whip
And "who was Adam Spencer?" well I really don't know but I do know that he had a Birotor advertised both here and overseas and had an Aussie e-mail address as well as an Aussie address that's why I asked the question.
A photo was shown with the car sitting in an obviously lock up garage of only one car width in a typical Aussie type background
Alan S
It got you out of the closet didn't it member #12 whip
And "who was Adam Spencer?" well I really don't know but I do know that he had a Birotor advertised both here and overseas and had an Aussie e-mail address as well as an Aussie address that's why I asked the question.
A photo was shown with the car sitting in an obviously lock up garage of only one car width in a typical Aussie type background
Alan S
Haakon, I visited a guy in a dodgy garage in Wales a few years ago and he had about 5 Ro80's in running condition. I was in the process of buying a Nissan Cherry off him for GBP300 to travel round in. I offered to buy an Ro80 for the same price. He didn't laugh....
Stuey
Stuey
I took some pictures of an Australian Birotor at the 2001 French Car Day.
I dont know anything about this car - I just took the pics =)
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/french_car_day/fcd2001/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/french_car_day/fcd2001/</a>
(third row down, 3 pics on the right)
I dont know anything about this car - I just took the pics =)
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/french_car_day/fcd2001/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/french_car_day/fcd2001/</a>
(third row down, 3 pics on the right)
Which just highlights my point re. the ignorance and mostly undeserved reputation surrounding R080s that has encouraged by the media and misinformed public. Perhaps the Ro80s you saw had had the Ford Transit cast iron pushrod V4 horror fitted. (how to ruin a beautiful car in one easy lesson!)Stuey:
Haakon, I visited a guy in a dodgy garage in Wales a few years ago and he had about 5 Ro80's in running condition. I was in the process of buying a Nissan Cherry off him for GBP300 to travel round in. I offered to buy an Ro80 for the same price. He didn't laugh....
Stuey
All I can say is that our R080s, and our family has run a few over the years, have all been absolutly wonderful, and we have never considered converting them to a Mazda rotary or one of a number of piston engines that people seem to think are an improvement. (we've got one with a Fiat twin cam engine - nice engine but the huge hump in the bonnet of the Ro80 that they put in to make it fit is a worry!)
Ah Adam Spencer was selling the car on behalf of it's owner. He is a Rotary fanatic and runs a website dedicated to such. Now you have all jogged my memory. SO that shows there is only one GS Birotor in this counttry and it is the one that was at the 2001 AFD>