Oxy sensor for carby car
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  1. #1
    bob
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    Default Oxy sensor for carby car

    G'day,

    so, how far down the exhaust pipe is the best spot to put the plug hole for one of these dandy little fellas and what sort is suggested to mate up with say one of those Jaycar readers ?

    Traps.... ?

    thanks
    Bob

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Cool. I've been hoping someone would buy a kit and install it in a carby fuego.
    I'll recomend innovative wide band. Cheap and functional with laptop logging if required.
    DOnt waste your time with non wide band..thats so last century and is as much use for tuning as a moving yoyo is for calculating the exact length of that famous piece of string.

    Both me and stew have the innovative and they do all they say they will. The budget nature of them becomes apparent in certain applications, but a crusty old carb fuego wont reach these limits.

    You want to make the bung in the pipe after it goes from 2 to one, so you sniff all the exhaust. You wont have to worry about heat too much in a standard fuego.
    Ridiculous amounts of richness soot and blow by will be more of a concern I'd say.

    Take it to an exhaust shop and they'll install the bung it in less than ten min, but just take note of clearence as they poke out a bit, and need to be in the upper half of the pipe so they dont get splashed with liquid when the engine is cold.

    Jo

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    Fellow Frogger!
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    I just bought another Innovate LC-1 on eBay from a guy in Melbourne yesterday. I did a bit of soul searching though. I've read some good things about the AEM UEGO which is (a) cheaper and (b) simpler to set up than the Innovate.

    However it had two things against it too. Firstly, it incorporates the controller in the gauge, so you have to find somewhere to put a gauge. Secondly, I already had a working LC-1 and was happy with it, so stuck with what I know.

    In your situation, with a carby engine, and wanting a permanent gauge, I'd consider the AEM.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    The LC-1 is fine while it's working, but reliability issues are high. Haltech use to re-brand them (where I got mine) but they have since dropped them for this reason. Mine has been working well for 4 yrs or so, the only issue being a dud sensor, until recently, when it went ballistic, sending out erratic voltages. I tried reflashing it, but no luck. I'll probably build/buy one of these: http://www.wbo2.com/, mostly because of local support.

    '92 205 Mi16
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  5. #5
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    The LC-1 is fine while it's working, but reliability issues are high. Haltech use to re-brand them (where I got mine) but they have since dropped them for this reason. Mine has been working well for 4 yrs or so, the only issue being a dud sensor, until recently, when it went ballistic, sending out erratic voltages. I tried reflashing it, but no luck. I'll probably build/buy one of these: http://www.wbo2.com/, mostly because of local support.
    Do you mean no luck with a new firmware, or you had no luck downloading the firmware??


    I had no luck downloading firmware (beta version) with the serial cable, and ironically the download worked fine with the serial to usb cable.

    Jo

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    Fellow Frogger! Molerpa's Avatar
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    The difference between Wideband and narrow, is related to what they do.

    Narrow, just shows "in which side of the stoichometric you are" (if from stoich to the side of lean or to the side of rich)...
    in other words... 0.5% less than stoich, would be 0.0 V... and 70% less than stoich, would be 0.0 V. 0.5% more than stoich, would be 0.95 V, and 70% more would be 0.95 V.

    The wideband, properly calibrated, can give you an exact idea of the A/F ratio.

    If you need it to do a complete calibration on a high-performance car, could be a help the wideband.

    If you just need it to be aware that you are not lean, and everything goes right, a narrow will do. (on a carb do not expect to do anything else than to be all the time on the 0.90-0.95)

    On my car, I use a narrow... it has more than 180.000 km, not a problem yet. And I used it to tune the injection, and to drive the close loop control of CNG.
    Obviously it took a few seconds more to start tuning the "base map" as you know that "it is rich" but you do not know "how much", so was like this:
    less fuel, click again, less, less, less, less... 0.0 V ¡Right! now, more... 0.90 V ... perfect. that 5% is the difference between both edges of stoich.


    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    It is simply impractical to expect a petrol motor to get through too much water. That's why God invented diesels.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Mine had the original firmware, so I downloaded the latest from their site, then into the LC-1. It all looks good, until it gets a whiff of something, then the 0-5V output goes to 7.1V.

    '92 205 Mi16
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    Quote Originally Posted by robs View Post
    I just bought another Innovate LC-1 on eBay from a guy in Melbourne yesterday. I did a bit of soul searching though. I've read some good things about the AEM UEGO which is (a) cheaper and (b) simpler to set up than the Innovate.

    However it had two things against it too. Firstly, it incorporates the controller in the gauge, so you have to find somewhere to put a gauge. Secondly, I already had a working LC-1 and was happy with it, so stuck with what I know.

    In your situation, with a carby engine, and wanting a permanent gauge, I'd consider the AEM.

    Have fun,

    Rob.
    I have just purchased an aem uego gauge so I'll let you know how it goes.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molerpa View Post
    On my car, I use a narrow... it has more than 180.000 km, not a problem yet. And I used it to tune the injection, and to drive the close loop control of CNG.
    Obviously it took a few seconds more to start tuning the "base map" as you know that "it is rich" but you do not know "how much", so was like this:
    less fuel, click again, less, less, less, less... 0.0 V ¡Right! now, more... 0.90 V ... perfect. that 5% is the difference between both edges of stoich.
    How do you tune load points of say... 80% at 4500 RPM which will want to be richer than within 5% of stoich???


    Jo

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I've mapped engines with a narrow band sensor in the past. To do so however, you need to calibrate your sensor against a known wideband sensor output. Here are the values for an NTK sensor. Note that 900mV would be too rich.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Oxy sensor for carby car-screen-shot-2012-08-23-3.30.58-pm.png  

    '92 205 Mi16
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  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Molerpa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    How do you tune load points of say... 80% at 4500 RPM which will want to be richer than within 5% of stoich???


    Jo
    that 5 (or 3) percent is around the stoich. You wanna go further (maxpwr mixture)? then, add 5%. By a Dyno, or a stopwatch you can test if it is better or not, as 12.5/12.8 : 1 would be the best for max power, but sometimes, due to condensation this can increase a few, wasting fuel, but improving power.





    I am not saying that is wrong to use a Wideband, (in fact I recommend it) but is important to know that can be done easily with a narrow, for standard and starting racing setup purposes.

    and, most of the narrow O2 sensors, have this response:








    that is why, as basically as I said before, only shows "on what side" of the stoichometric mixture you are.
    Last edited by Molerpa; 23rd August 2012 at 05:04 PM.


    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    It is simply impractical to expect a petrol motor to get through too much water. That's why God invented diesels.

  12. #12
    bob
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    Thanks fellas,

    getting a bit of education here.

    Would you believe, fossicking in the shed turned up this ancient Hawk A/F meter with a mountain of cable etc etc..... However, I don't think I ever managed to get the damn thing to do anything in days of yore... no paperwork of course. Might have a play in a day or two when the weather improves.

    cheers,
    Bob

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    Default Aahh the good old days !

    Hi Bob,
    If thats an old thermal meter, then I might be able to help a bit. I did quite a few Kms tuning carbys in the "good old däys".
    They are "wide band" and certainly work OK. The response is slow and you have to hold the setting till it settles. Not as good as an O2 sensor but should be workable. Patience is a virtue. You need a selection of hills to suit different throttle settings.

    Jaahn

  14. #14
    bob
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    Thanks Jaahn,
    got the basic idea with the animal, yep, they use a warm wire with the exhaust running past it in a little sealed box which is part of a bridge circuit. When the mixture changes the bridge gets unbalanced which is reflected in the meter reading. It has a "set" switch which I guess is used with the "set" control to set the full scale meter deflection, then you switch to "normal" and set the mid scale "balance" prior to sniffing....... sound about right ?

    cheers,
    Bob

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    Icon11 Hmmm thinking ----

    Quote Originally Posted by bob View Post
    Thanks Jaahn,
    got the basic idea with the animal, yep, they use a warm wire with the exhaust running past it in a little sealed box which is part of a bridge circuit. When the mixture changes the bridge gets unbalanced which is reflected in the meter reading. It has a "set" switch which I guess is used with the "set" control to set the full scale meter deflection, then you switch to "normal" and set the mid scale "balance" prior to sniffing....... sound about right ?

    cheers,
    Bob
    Hi Bob, The forum seems to have a few glitches still !!
    My old meter was "loaned" to a school for a project quite a few years ago so these details are a bit vague.

    As I remember my meter scale had two markings for the adjustments. The set was done first and then the balance. Probably as you said the first at FS and the second was in the center. These were done with the hoses disconnected and the air free to flow into the unit. These adjustments were repeated at regular intervals while testing as it drifted. Also blow out the hose to get rid of the condensate. Don't forget the second hose out the window with the gasses !

    You probably know this but the readings changed slowly, because of the time for the gas to come back along the hose. So you had to get a throttle setting and hold it tillthe reading changed and stabilised, maybe 10 seconds or so. Then more throttle and wait etc, etc. Long hills were required.

    With progressive carbys I disabled the second throat and set the first one. Leanish for good economy. Then connect it and set the second one to go richer for full throttle. It's not as hard as it sounds because the carby is designed to provide the correct even mixture spead by its design. You just have to decide what jet is the major influence at the time you are looking. The progression system also should be looked at for good economy and driveability.

    Of course the engine should be in good tune otherwise and the carby working properly. I recall having trouble with one car and discovering after some wasted time, a cracked manifold flange leaking air !!!!

    Cheers and good luck Jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 26th August 2012 at 11:18 AM. Reason: mistake !

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