Tecnosir Sphere Regassing Tool
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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Default Tecnosir Sphere Regassing Tool

    An incomplete topic, for now.

    Some time ago, I heard of these units, made in Italy by a company who also make spheres.

    They have a system to repressurise spheres whereby the sphere's end blanking plug is replaced by a ball-and-spring valve assembly. To regas, a gassing head is screwed onto the ball valve back - not unlike charging an AC unit in a car. This head is connected by a flex hose to a regulator, in turn linked to a Nitrogen bottle. Charging pressure is controlled by the regulator knob.

    When it's done, a sealing plug is screwed in to the valve back, and a green plastic cap clipped over it all.

    Advantages of this system are - as I see it - that you don't need to remove the spheres to regas them, and you can let just a little gas out if you want to experiment with pressures.

    Disadvantages are - apparently a slightly higher rate of gas leakage (compared to blank threaded plug regassing), lack of authenticity in appearance, and incompatibility with other recharging systems. Also there is a good amount of nitrogen lost from the flex hose when the gassing head is unscrewed each time.

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    As supplied, the regassing kit also comes with a nitrogen bottle fitting incompatible with Australian cylinders.

    Considering all the negatives, I remind readers I am a stubborn f***er and therefore decided to buy this gear for my own porpoises.

    Costs to date:
    Regassing rig and twenty ball valves $525 landed
    Aussie bottle fitting with mesh insert filter, modified to fit $100

    Note there is not yet a line entry for N2, as I will probably scrounge for the first while. You can see, however, that it is not dirt cheap, and for $700-upwards (bottle included) you can buy a lot of club regassings or aftermarket spheres. So, contrary to the usual macho blather of "I just bought this tool and it is AWESOME!!!" this probably doesn't fit your billing unless situation and plans are similar to my own.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    An incomplete topic, for now.

    Some time ago, I heard of these units, made in Italy by a company who also make spheres.

    They have a system to repressurise spheres whereby the sphere's end blanking plug is replaced by a ball-and-spring valve assembly. To regas, a gassing head is screwed onto the ball valve back - not unlike charging an AC unit in a car. This head is connected by a flex hose to a regulator, in turn linked to a Nitrogen bottle. Charging pressure is controlled by the regulator knob.

    When it's done, a sealing plug is screwed in to the valve back, and a green plastic cap clipped over it all.

    Advantages of this system are - as I see it - that you don't need to remove the spheres to regas them, and you can let just a little gas out if you want to experiment with pressures.

    Disadvantages are - apparently a slightly higher rate of gas leakage (compared to blank threaded plug regassing), lack of authenticity in appearance, and incompatibility with other recharging systems. Also there is a good amount of nitrogen lost from the flex hose when the gassing head is unscrewed each time.

    As supplied, the regassing kit also comes with a nitrogen bottle fitting incompatible with Australian cylinders.

    Considering all the negatives, I remind readers I am a stubborn f***er and therefore decided to buy this gear for my own porpoises.

    Costs to date:
    Regassing rig and twenty ball valves $525 landed
    Aussie bottle fitting with mesh insert filter, modified to fit $100

    Note there is not yet a line entry for N2, as I will probably scrounge for the first while. You can see, however, that it is not dirt cheap, and for $700-upwards (bottle included) you can buy a lot of club regassings or aftermarket spheres. So, contrary to the usual macho blather of "I just bought this tool and it is AWESOME!!!" this probably doesn't fit your billing unless situation and plans are similar to my own.
    I see importing the gear as re-inventing the wheel.

    I can't see why aircon schraeder valves wouldn't be suitable as valves. Although it may upset the purists aesthetically. But then anything non standard will cause them grief.

    Then you connect a n2 cylinder via a aircon manifold gauge set and hook up to schraeder.

    Standard gear. Standard cylinder . Off the shelf spares.

    Is there a flaw in my logic ?

    Something like these:
    http://www.schraderinternational.com...and-Connectors

    I am assuming spheres aren't charged to much over 50 bar or so.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I see importing the gear as re-inventing the wheel.

    I can't see why aircon schraeder valves wouldn't be suitable as valves. Although it may upset the purists aesthetically. But then anything non standard will cause them grief.

    Then you connect a n2 cylinder via a aircon manifold gauge set and hook up to schraeder.

    Standard gear. Standard cylinder . Off the shelf spares.

    Is there a flaw in my logic ?

    Something like these:
    http://www.schraderinternational.com...and-Connectors

    I am assuming spheres aren't charged to much over 50 bar or so.
    CX fronts are 75 bar..... At that cost I'm almost tempted to import one myself. I didn't realise they were that price. You'll spend that much even if you make a up a gassing head yourself just on regulator, lines, high pressure ball valves etc.....

    The biggest question of course is ..... How much are the regassing valves you must buy for each sphere

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Rob - The highest pressure spheres commonly found on a Xantia are 70 bar; nearly all CitroŽns have a 62 bar accumulator.

    Filling valves have been somewhat designed to be fairly low profile; means they aren't going to get the tips knocked off on a rough road or take up excess space when it's tight.

    I don't dispute the basic premise of your comments at all; it's just that the system I've bought is one many people hear of and wonder about - I'm the test dummy.

    Shane - they are cheap enough; 28 Euro plus postage per five valves. You need to learn northern Italian for "airmail in padded bag, please". Remember too, I have not yet road tested the results.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Rob - The highest pressure spheres commonly found on a Xantia are 70 bar; nearly all CitroŽns have a 62 bar accumulator.

    Filling valves have been somewhat designed to be fairly low profile; means they aren't going to get the tips knocked off on a rough road or take up excess space when it's tight.

    I don't dispute the basic premise of your comments at all; it's just that the system I've bought is one many people hear of and wonder about - I'm the test dummy.

    Shane - they are cheap enough; 28 Euro plus postage per five valves. You need to learn northern Italian for "airmail in padded bag, please". Remember too, I have not yet road tested the results.
    Wow! that means you need 100bar rating minimum for safety, 1500 psi in the old money.

    Forget anything Aircon.

    You might be using the cylinder of N2 to dispense via a "suicide hose" without a regulator?

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I was thinking about this last night. I think the best bit about this setup is anyone with a lathe could make up there own proper sphere filling "head". You could make it really simple. One attatchment line ... and use the existing gasser to add/remove the gas and hook to the bottle. Yet still fill spheres with the factory plug in them.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I was thinking about this last night. I think the best bit about this setup is anyone with a lathe could make up there own proper sphere filling "head". You could make it really simple. One attatchment line ... and use the existing gasser to add/remove the gas and hook to the bottle. Yet still fill spheres with the factory plug in them.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    If you could make/find a leave-in-place service port with an auto seal on hose disconnect to replace the existing plug in the sphere that may be best.

    But I guess that is what Addo has in his imported kit.

    There must be something in the pneumatic range of posts that will handle pressure and is considered a primary seal.

    Perhaps something aircon will handle the pressure. I note R410A hoses have a teflon "service valve rubber" to seal the higher pressures for 3/8 ports.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Addo are you sure it won't screw straight into a local nitrogen bottle ?? Given you would want 100bar available to the gassing rig, I'm assuming most people don't bother with a regulator (can you buy reg's that allow such high pressures ?). Failing that, surely turning up a simple adapter in a lathe (or buying one) would be far simpler than buying different hoses and fittings

    I'll be very interested to see how this works out when it arrives.

    seeya,
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Addo are you sure it won't screw straight into a local nitrogen bottle ?? Given you would want 100bar available to the gassing rig, I'm assuming most people don't bother with a regulator (can you buy reg's that allow such high pressures ?). Failing that, surely turning up a simple adapter in a lathe (or buying one) would be far simpler than buying different hoses and fittings

    I'll be very interested to see how this works out when it arrives.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    I would think it's a "suicide hose" - straight into the cylinder.

    Regulators would reduce the pressure to much.

    Won't be very economical on nitrogen. When the cylinder pressure gets to less than the sphere pressure you can't charge any more spheres. In spite of plenty of n2 still left in the cylinder.

    You may need compressed air operated 2x pressure booster to get the full value out of the bottle.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I would think it's a "suicide hose" - straight into the cylinder.

    Regulators would reduce the pressure to much.

    Won't be very economical on nitrogen. When the cylinder pressure gets to less than the sphere pressure you can't charge any more spheres. In spite of plenty of n2 still left in the cylinder.

    You may need compressed air operated 2x pressure booster to get the full value out of the bottle.
    Apparently the trick is to gas a bunch of CX fronts with a new bottle until it gets down to 75bar ................ gassing the rears only as the bottle gets down to 30bar. After that Tire inflation

    seeya,
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Apparently the trick is to gas a bunch of CX fronts with a new bottle until it gets down to 75bar ................ gassing the rears only as the bottle gets down to 30bar. After that Tire inflation

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    If you do a lot of them you could purchase an "pressure intensifier" which is a device that runs off compressed air and doubles or triples the gas pressure.

    This is done by operating a small area piston over a long travel to increase the pressure. Exploiting the gas laws.

    These are/were used in dive shops to allow a lower pressure compressor (500 psi), think cheaper, charge an air tank to 15000 psi (or in this range) by a x3 boost

    However they are slow because the boost only happens in "single shots". Normally they were used to charge a bank of G size cylinders (pirates) ahead of time, from which the tanks were filled at peak times.

    Pressure intensifiers weren't too expensive either.

    FYI http://www.smcpneumatics.ie/pages/pr...php?itemId=678

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    If you do a lot of them you could purchase an "pressure intensifier" which is a device that runs off compressed air and doubles or triples the gas pressure.

    This is done by operating a small area piston over a long travel to increase the pressure. Exploiting the gas laws.

    These are/were used in dive shops to allow a lower pressure compressor (500 psi), think cheaper, charge an air tank to 15000 psi (or in this range) by a x3 boost

    However they are slow because the boost only happens in "single shots". Normally they were used to charge a bank of G size cylinders (pirates) ahead of time, from which the tanks were filled at peak times.

    Pressure intensifiers weren't too expensive either.

    FYI http://www.smcpneumatics.ie/pages/pr...php?itemId=678
    That's very interesting. Would a compressor be able to increase pressure to ~~ 75bar though. I seems like a huge ask to me

    seeya,
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    That's very interesting. Would a compressor be able to increase pressure to ~~ 75bar though. I seems like a huge ask to me

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    I don't know the pressure of a full n2 cylinder but 02 is around 1500psi?
    So n2 is probably around that.

    I was assuming you would power it off the cylinder. This means you would double the use of a normal cylinder.

    You see, you don't need high pressure to power the intensifier. The "pump up" output piston is a small in area so the motive power for the cylinder is low pressure source over a long distance. The whole rig is powered off your existing gas source, it just doubles what you have.

    The physics of operation is stated in the combined gas laws.

    The only pressure limit is what the seals in the in the unit will handle.

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Arrives? Shane, it's here on my kitchen bench.

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Arrives? Shane, it's here on my kitchen bench.
    Does it look well made ? I'm assuming it's designed to screw straight onto the bottle. And all you need is an adapter and your away

    seeya,
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    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Interesting.

    How do you test the sphere with it still fitted to the car?

    What would you be doing to the car's hydraulic system if the sphere diaphragm had failed and you then attempted to fill the sphere with nitrogen?
    Regards,

    Simon

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLC206 View Post
    Interesting.

    How do you test the sphere with it still fitted to the car?

    What would you be doing to the car's hydraulic system if the sphere diaphragm had failed and you then attempted to fill the sphere with nitrogen?
    That shouldn't be a problem, it would be like trying to fill a tire with a hole in it .... the nitrogen would just bubble back out of the reseviour

    seeya,
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    You can't - as I see it - quantitatively "test" the installed spheres.

    What I reckon is the simple fix, is to use the supplied valve depressing tool and release a little pressure. If the sphere has failed, you would expect presence of LHM with the puff of gas.

    Regassing would restore pressure to desired levels.

    A failed sphere or multiple failures otherwise, would not charge beyond the regulator's presently set pressure, and I believe this lies well within design limits of a healthy (ie; non-corroded, non-fractured) system.

    Pictures shortly - just bluetoothing them.

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Pictures, as threatened.

    The difference between Oz fittings and a Euro N2 bottle coupling is evident.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tecnosir Sphere Regassing Tool-depressing_tool.jpg   Tecnosir Sphere Regassing Tool-head_closeup.jpg   Tecnosir Sphere Regassing Tool-new_botfit.jpg   Tecnosir Sphere Regassing Tool-old_botfit.jpg   Tecnosir Sphere Regassing Tool-tecnosir_incoming.jpg   Tecnosir Sphere Regassing Tool-tecnosir_outgoing.jpg  

    Tecnosir Sphere Regassing Tool-valve_1.jpg   Tecnosir Sphere Regassing Tool-valve_2.jpg  

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think you could quite easily make that duel purpose. Just whip up a simple "gassing head" and you could do "off vehicle" gassing without the special valve too.

    I have the "gassing head" build for the JBM one (from memory) too somewhere. I've been intending to make one for years and years and years...... Someday I'll find the time and $$$

    http://shanescitshed.com/spherecharg...erecharger.pdf

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 15th August 2012 at 09:14 PM.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    That reflects exactly why I'm doing some of the things I am presently doing.

    Putting stuff off, ends up with depleted enjoyment of the car, more "knock-on" wear and tear, and self-nagging. Of course it would be nicer if the pieces cost less, and machine work cheaper, but I hate being haggled and won't do it to others - fair play is better.

    Presently, if I suspect a sphere is low, I have to pop it off the car, go and see a Club member with testing gear (35km round trip), leave it to be regassed if necessary, then collect and refit. That might be 70km and three days of no Xantia.

    Or I can forego a weekend paying job, and attend a tech day - where hopefully I can get my car on the hoist to whip off the antisink and corner rears, then regas them on the day at $22/sphere.

    On the occasions I do get to a tech day, it's better if I am more useful to others than trying to feather my nest. So, the upfront cost has bought me regassing much more on my terms for timing and accessibility.

  22. #22
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    We have 2 D's and my CX here that need regassing at the moment. Yep, time and cost is always fun.

    my biggest issue with a regasser is the upkeep. You will likely be paying close to $200 a year for bottle rental ....................... Even if the damn thing isn't even used!

    I have a range of spheres here, so I could "regass" everything here and return the bottle. Then if anyone turns up with 50% flat spheres, I could stick the gassed ones on, and keep there sphere's to regass at a later point (next time you hire a bottle).

    seeya,
    Shane l.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Bottle hire's looking closer to $80 through one of my workplaces. They couldn't care less if I took it home in Sydney, to Ganmain or on interstate holiday.

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    The thought of 100 bar of nitrogen potentially going through the low pressure lines and exploding into the LHM tank do not bear thinking about. Testing and regassing on the bench seems safer to me. I have seen too many spheres at tech days "let go" once brought even up to half their pressure.

    Having said that, I look forward to hearing addo's reports.

    At tech days we always try to get high pressure spheres done first - particularly CX fronts @ 75bar. Anyone who turns up later in the day with a CX stands a chance of not getting fronts done depending upon the status of the gas bottle/s.
    Craig K
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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    You open the reg to whatever sphere pressure is supposed to be; there should never be 100 bar in a CitroŽn sphere. I think my "squirt test" would reveal most failed spheres, also you would rapidly develop unit familiarity and if it was taking too long you'd unscrew the charging head.

    Bench regassing is also no problem, you could have it screwed into the sphere tester (bleed valve open) as a holding device.

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