Timing belt tool sets
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  1. #1
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Default Timing belt tool sets

    Hi Guys,

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    Does anyone have any experience with the timing belt tools for pinning up everything in the right position. I'll need to do the timing belt on a PSA 2litre HDi in the not to distant future, however I might as well buy a set that covers a range of vehicles. If you look there is a huge range available. Does anyone have any hints/feedback on which is the one to get

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_sa...t+timing+tools

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    What do Salman or Kenny use?

    On FCF, you could ask Lighty.

    UK brands will be Draper, Sealey, Laser (all lower to medium grade) then things like Sykes-Pickavant which are possibly a little superior in some way.

    UKTools will send tax free with a respectable freight charge, but they are not always cheapest on stuff.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    thanks addo,

    fortunately there is no hurry so I'll ask around ( I need to wait until I get some tax back before I buy the keys, lexia, towbar etc...).

    I'll ask on the FCF as you suggest, infact, I might just do a search over there

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    Modern Junk:
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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Lighty and Wheeler are the only fulltime techs there, as Lighty is self employed he doesn't splurge unnecessarily.

    With some of the less bulky or heavy kits, by the time you add postage and get reamed by PayPal, even a VAT free sale can be neck and neck with local agents of exactly the same item in a different colour case. The balljoint tool is a good example - less than $2 in it usually.

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    a general question on this topic:

    my experience is changing maybe 4 chains and 3 timing belts over the years, and each time, i just checked the position of timing marks. has the world just become more sissy, or is there some reason that doesnt work on modern cars?
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    bob
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    G'day Shane,

    only ever done one, white type-out or whatever it's called, specs, and a steady hand......

    was told by one bloke, start it up and let it idle with the cover off, strip the old belt up the middle with a nice new staley knife, stop engine, remove outer half of old belt, slip on newbie, chop rest of old one off, push newbie to right spot, all done. Sounds too easy to bugger up.....

    cheers,
    Bob

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    These motors can be finely set up, and done properly need the crank pulley loosened off - there is an amount of play available.

    Although I understand they're more sensible than Renault and still use. Woodruf key.

    Pinning the cams also stops one cam shifting of position while the belt is off.

    I did the EW10 motor with a couple of Allen keys as pins and didn't do the fine tuning by loosening the crank bolt off - just marked it all up first, new belt and pulleys on. Technically a bit of a short cut, but worked.
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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob View Post
    ...was told by one bloke, start it up and let it idle with the cover off, strip the old belt up the middle with a nice new staley knife, stop engine, remove outer half of old belt, slip on newbie, chop rest of old one off, push newbie to right spot, all done....
    Did the same bloke show you how to carve slivers off a tyre weight and hammer them into the bleed hole of a leaky water pump?

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Did the same bloke show you how to carve slivers off a tyre weight and hammer them into the bleed hole of a leaky water pump?
    Heavens addo,

    I thought everyone used cut off 14 gauge roofing screw complete with rubber washer to do that!
    Far superior repair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob View Post

    was told by one bloke, start it up and let it idle with the cover off, strip the old belt up the middle with a nice new staley knife, stop engine, remove outer half of old belt, slip on newbie, chop rest of old one off, push newbie to right spot, all done. Sounds too easy to bugger up.....

    cheers,
    Bob
    i need to change a cam belt in the near future. i am going to try that for sure.

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    Default Hdi

    I have done my 405 srdt and also my sons 306 hdi which im presuming is the engine you have or similar ,as its common rail the pump only produces pressure and dousnt need to be timmed [but mark it anyway],just put white marker on the belt and pulley at pump, cam and crank,back off tensioner ,transfer marks from old belt to new, re install lineing up marks ,turn over with spanner at least 2 revolutions before hitting the started ,the pin for the crank can be made up from a steel tent peg of apropriate diamiter ,goes through a hole in the crankcase just behind the starter ,engages in a coresponding hole in the flywheel at tdc ,keep some pressure in on the peg while rotating the crank with a screw driver through the hole in the top of the bellhousing ,you will feel it drop in ,when you have it mark the flywheel through this hole in the bell housing so it will be easier to find hext time, an apropriate bolt with some sleeving over it or some tape rapped around it ,[i had a steped bolt in my parts bin that works a treat ]will pin the cam through one of the spokes on the cam wheel ,by pinning and also marking you cant go fare wrong ,but make absolutely sure all pins are removed and you have rotated the crank manualy before you try the starter ,tensioner it spring loaded so no guesswork like on an mi 16 try finding some pictures in a workshop manuel ,will make things a bit clearer before you jump in ,pugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    i need to change a cam belt in the near future. i am going to try that for sure.
    Yes, the lateral thinking appeals to also.

    I'm just wondering how hard it would be to par a cam belt. I guess it would be possible provided you cut between the steel reinforcing.

    But I'd think you would need split it, manually, section at a time.

    The last belt I had done had index marks on the cam pulleys and the crank pulley and likewise on the belt
    and it was slip-off slip-on change.

    It took the highly flexible, miniature ball jointed finger mechanic 4 hrs from drive to drive out.

    You know what? I would have been glad to pay him, if it wasn't included in the purchase of the vehicle!

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    Default Timing Marks !

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    a general question on this topic:

    my experience is changing maybe 4 chains and 3 timing belts over the years, and each time, i just checked the position of timing marks. has the world just become more sissy, or is there some reason that doesnt work on modern cars?
    Hi,
    European manufacturers seem to believe that setting up belts to timing marks is not good enough. So they have had a competion on the most obtuse method of holding the various bits to get the perfect settings Timing marks, How passe are they
    Not only that but the pulleys on some models have proceeded over time to rotate on the rubber inserts and the holes have been unreliable. So the answer is, yes the world has become more sissy, and it pays to study the procedure before starting if you don't want to end up in the sh*t.
    Jaahn
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi,
    European manufacturers seem to believe that setting up belts to timing marks is not good enough. So they have had a competion on the most obtuse method of holding the various bits to get the perfect settings Timing marks, How passe are they
    Not only that but the pulleys on some models have proceeded over time to rotate on the rubber inserts and the holes have been unreliable. So the answer is, yes the world has become more sissy, and it pays to study the procedure before starting if you don't want to end up in the sh*t.
    Jaahn
    PSA seem to employ complication for the sake of complication. Have all good design principles and attempts to facilitate service gone down the gurgler?

    Bloody hell it's only a toothed belt and marks on both the belt and pulleys seems a very simple and logical solution.

    It's not as if most of their dealers are much good either!

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    Did the EW10 belt, pullies and waterpump in 3 1/2 hours (inlcuding beer breaks) in the driveway with only a trolley jack... Its not rocket surgery so long as you know what you're getting into.

    The 4 cam V6 motors look like they would take longer, the Xsara has pretty good access to everything.
    Last edited by Haakon; 18th July 2012 at 03:23 PM.
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    Default Not just PSA !

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    PSA seem to employ complication for the sake of complication. Have all good design principles and attempts to facilitate service gone down the gurgler?

    It's not just PSA. I have done a Ford Mondeo and a Golf diesel also. They both had no keys in the timing wheels. I bet the new ones are worse still. Servicing is not important on the home market as the cars get thrown out anyway.

    Bloody hell it's only a toothed belt and marks on both the belt and pulleys seems a very simple and logical solution.

    I understand the reason is to get the timing exact so the pollution is minimal as per the design specs.The Europeans are more serious about pollution as opposed to getting through the prevailing rules.

    It's not as if most of their dealers are much good either!
    Can't argue there.

    Another point is the design life of the tensioner and idler pulley(s). More to the point the plastic covering etc. These may last the life of the engine; based on the fact that when they fail the engine's life is ended too. Be cautious here as many have tripped up by "saving" money not replacing these on later model engines.

    It is possible to just replace the belt by carefull marking etc and only loosening the tensioner a tad. However triple checking by turning by hand several turns and checking marks etc is essential. Some cams will not stay still at the required spot though.
    To say "you cant go fare wrong" is incorrect. Surely it should be, "it couldn't cost that much to get it wrong"
    jaahn

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Can't argue there.

    Another point is the design life of the tensioner and idler pulley(s). More to the point the plastic covering etc. These may last the life of the engine; based on the fact that when they fail the engine's life is ended too. Be cautious here as many have tripped up by "saving" money not replacing these on later model engines.

    It is possible to just replace the belt by carefull marking etc and only loosening the tensioner a tad. However triple checking by turning by hand several turns and checking marks etc is essential. Some cams will not stay still at the required spot though.
    To say "you cant go fare wrong" is incorrect. Surely it should be, "it couldn't cost that much to get it wrong"
    jaahn
    Maybe I'm missing something here

    Marks on belts and pulleys are surely 100% accurate?

    The new and old belt have the same number of teeth between the marks on the cams/ crankshaft toothed wheels.

    The only variance in toothed wheel positions is caused by the stretch in old belt which is irrelevant anyway because the new belt will soon be stretched.

    The tensioner is in the dead side of the belt so it's position does affect the relative positions of the toothed wheels.

    Yes, I agree check, check and double the belt is correctly fitted.

    I would always change tensioner and water pump (and oil seals) if a belt was being replaced on a distance basis.

    However, on my own vehicle, at 84,000 km I decided to replace the belt only because it was overdue on the "time on vehicle basis". Manufacturer recommends 150,000km/ 5 years. The car 10 yo.

    So I'll probably replace the belt again and the water pump and the tensioner at around 165,000 km. And the 1MZ-FE V6 engine is a non interference engine anyway!

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    I think you guys are missing the point. Check out Jo's thread on Adjustable Cam Gear - this is the trouble you need to go to to get the cam timing correct when the keyway/timing mark system is used. And it's not fractions of degrees we are talking about - eg, with a 36 tooth cam gear each tooth is 10 degrees apart, ok? With the old timing mark system, depending on machining tolerances, including head gasket thickness, invariably when you line up the marks you can be, say, one third of a tooth either way of the exact mark, rarely do you end up right on the mark, and that is only by luck. Nothing you can do about that, unless you use a vernier adjustable gear. Now 3 degrees at the cam translates to 6 degrees at the crank, would you say that is near enough? Well, thats what you do with the old system.
    Now, I am an old school mechanic, bred on cast iron V8s and Ford 4 cylinders, so imagine my disgust when I first read in my Haynes manual for the Scenic, that the timing gears had no positive location. Stupid French design, what do they do, set everything with jigs in the factory so its impossible for Joe Public to work on? Then I worked out what they were getting at, and I realized they had a system where you can get the timing spot on every time without using vernier gears. And it is not hard, just lock the camshafts in location with a simple flat plate tool which you could make in the shed, and use a locating pin (just a length of 8mm rod) to locate the crank at TDC, and it doesn't matter tiddly-squat where any of the gear/sprockets are, just slip the belt on, tighten up the crankshaft bolt, and Bob's your Aunty!

    I suggest that the cause of a slipping crankshaft sprocket would be incorrect tightening of the bolt, and I also suggest that if you were paranoid about that, you could put a key on the crank sprocket (I haven't looked, but others say the keyways are there) but then you would have to loosen off the cam sprockets and allow them to rotate slightly to line up with the belt teeth, but it could be done.

    If the engine was completely stripped, eg, both cam sprockets were removed, then no problem, just put them back on in any orientation, use the aligning tools, and your timing is perfect. No marks required.

    So having been someone who has played around on several racing Mini engines using vernier gears and the associated dial gauging of the valve opening to get it correct (I wouldnt have bothered on a street engine), I am all in favour of the Renault system, simple and effective - brilliant in fact.

    Getting back to Shane's original post - Shane with all that gear you have - lathes, etc - I am sure you could make these tools up on an "as required" basis - only thing is you just need a bit of time to maybe make something part way through the job. In my case, I did buy a cam lock tool because I didn't want to get held up during the job, and I didn't have time to have a preliminary look at the setup. At the same time, if you can get a full set of the tools to cover various models, at a good price, then it could save you some time. I believe you may be disappointed in your value-for-money once you see what you have paid for. You'll be saying - I could have made that!

    Edit: Then again - looking at the tools for Citroen/Peugeot - maybe you'd be better off buying them!

    Last edited by Fordman; 10th July 2012 at 01:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob View Post
    G'day Shane,

    only ever done one, white type-out or whatever it's called, specs, and a steady hand......

    was told by one bloke, start it up and let it idle with the cover off, strip the old belt up the middle with a nice new staley knife, stop engine, remove outer half of old belt, slip on newbie, chop rest of old one off, push newbie to right spot, all done. Sounds too easy to bugger up.....

    cheers,
    Bob
    I first read this and thought....very funny !

    Now I've re-read it and realise it's serious !

    Cheers

    Justin
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Hi Guys,

    Does anyone have any experience with the timing belt tools for pinning up everything in the right position. I'll need to do the timing belt on a PSA 2litre HDi in the not to distant future, however I might as well buy a set that covers a range of vehicles. If you look there is a huge range available. Does anyone have any hints/feedback on which is the one to get

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_sa...t+timing+tools

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    That is a scary range of tools just for a cam belt. I've never done a Pug belt (I even paid someone to do the belt in the Scenic) but I've done a heap of Twincam Fiat engines over the years and they were difficult to get wrong.

    I'll keep my eye on this thread so that in 10 years when our 308 is due I'll be ready !

    Cheers

    Justin
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    "was told by one bloke, start it up and let it idle with the cover off, strip the old belt up the middle with a nice new staley knife, stop engine, remove outer half of old belt, slip on newbie, chop rest of old one off, push newbie to right spot, all done. Sounds too easy to bugger up....."

    If you get this wrong your screwed .
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    Default Old myth revisited ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Berridale View Post
    "was told by one bloke, start it up and let it idle with the cover off, strip the old belt up the middle with a nice new staley knife, stop engine, remove outer half of old belt, slip on newbie, chop rest of old one off, push newbie to right spot, all done. Sounds too easy to bugger up....."

    If you get this wrong your screwed .
    Hi Berridale
    This has been resurected a bit early for Easter

    For the sake of anyone who may be tempted by this simple method, DON'T try it. IMHO it cannot work as stated. It omits to mention the flanges that would be on at least one of the pulleys to prevent the belt moving off and thereby stopping a new one slipping on. Or indeed the other pulleys for the fan belt or whatever in the way, which probably hold the timing belt pulleys to the crankshaft and possibly have no keys there.

    If you want a simple method then study the book first so you do not stuff it up. Not utube for a different make and model.

    I bought a Golf diesel years ago which had a knock. It turns out the guy had replaced the timing belt. It had knocked since then and he decided to sell it. While I was listening to it idle it sh*t itself as a valve head dropped off. That motor was a throw away. He did not know about the keyless cam wheels. Hmmmm-- Should have brought the book first.
    Jaahn

    PS with another motor that car was the most economical I have seen. Kept my daughter going for the uni years at low cost. The original 1600 diesel model.
    Last edited by jaahn; 20th March 2016 at 09:00 AM.

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    As said don't attempt this.

    You wouldn't repair a tractor like this!
    Do it properly and nothing goes wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Did the same bloke show you how to carve slivers off a tyre weight and hammer them into the bleed hole of a leaky water pump?


    Cheers

    Justin
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    Not much use having a new belt if the pump or idlers havent been changed ,particularly if its got plastic idlers, that stanley knife procedure sounds impressive ,but its only going to cut the belt and not the teeth down in the groove of the pulley ,so unless the rubber is absolutely shot its not going to split in two ,iv done a couple of hdi ,marked everything with white felt pen ,if you are not confident buy a kit or pay someone to do it properly pugs
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