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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts cav91's Avatar
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    Default snapped head bolt

    G'day just wondering how you "professionals" remove brocken head bolts out of the block?
    The car is a series one mi16.

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    You snapped it?!
    Current stash
    too many.

    Passed over stash
    lots.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    If its, " brocken " then you "unsckrew" it.
    Could not resist...

    How much is left above the block surface?
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    Quote Originally Posted by young 4 old pug View Post
    You snapped it?!
    Yeah I did. But It seems rather common. I know of a few prefessionals who have done it. But of course I know you haven't.

    How do you stop it from snapping when removing? The heads never been off and it's rusted in. You can't spray anything in, so how do you prevent it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamma View Post
    If its, " brocken " then you "unsckrew" it.
    Could not resist...

    How much is left above the block surface?
    It's about 5mm below the block surface now. When it happened it was about 10mm above the block surface, So I sprayed lots of stuff on it, bashed a smaller socket on and gently tried again. When It then snapped again further down. Just my luck
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    Quote Originally Posted by cav91 View Post
    It's about 5mm below the block surface now. When it happened it was about 10mm above the block surface, So I sprayed lots of stuff on it, bashed a smaller socket on and gently tried again. When It then snapped again further down. Just my luck
    get some penetrene into it and let it soak for a few days

    then get some good easy outs and try again with care
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    Quote Originally Posted by cav91 View Post
    It's about 5mm below the block surface now. When it happened it was about 10mm above the block surface, So I sprayed lots of stuff on it, bashed a smaller socket on and gently tried again. When It then snapped again further down. Just my luck
    Drill it and use an appropriate "easy-out" tool to remove it. Needs one of the good quality tools of that name and stud drilled to the recommended size. Would help if you can use an oxy torch to spot heat the stud (would have been easier when it protruded above - Note all professional wreckers should have an oxy torch (Gas axe) available (Tell dad that!! ) makes life easy to remove anything!! heat then cool with penetrene, that should break any rust etc.

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Drill it and use an appropriate "easy-out" tool to remove it. Needs one of the good quality tools of that name and stud drilled to the recommended size. Would help if you can use an oxy torch to spot heat the stud (would have been easier when it protruded above - Note all professional wreckers should have an oxy torch (Gas axe) available (Tell dad that!! ) makes life easy to remove anything!! heat then cool with penetrene, that should break any rust etc.

    Ken
    Ken, easy outs aren't a good idea on a head bolt and the blocks alloy so I wouldn't put any heat on it.

    Head bolt is quite hard and the block is soft so any drilling has to be 100% acurate so without some kind or jig I wouldn't risk it and if we snap an easyout off we really are in deep poo poo.

    The offending bolt is on the exhaust side so its the hardest one to get to.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by cav91 View Post
    It's about 5mm below the block surface now. When it happened it was about 10mm above the block surface, So I sprayed lots of stuff on it, bashed a smaller socket on and gently tried again. When It then snapped again further down. Just my luck
    Thats about as bad as it gets.
    Try to get a hold of a set of these....Used and approved....
    http://en.foerch.com/product.aspx?p=...a-f47e01449071

    Australian contact...
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    As an old Holden owner broken studs were a common feature of operation.
    With the stud broken below the machined surface of the block heating needs to be done with caution.

    You need to accurately drill the stud, making sure you do not drill past the stud extent and into the block.

    A drill press that bolts onto the block is desirable for this operation.

    A long soak with penetreen or similar as suggested should be done over the course of three or more days. It will not work in minutes or hours....days...trust me.

    Be patient and work slowly with a calm reminiscent of a Zen Buddhist.
    Lose you cool and you will be up for another engine block.

    If you make a dogs breakfast of it, I recommend.....


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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Drill it and use an appropriate "easy-out" tool to remove it. Needs one of the good quality tools of that name and stud drilled to the recommended size. Would help if you can use an oxy torch to spot heat the stud (would have been easier when it protruded above - Note all professional wreckers should have an oxy torch (Gas axe) available (Tell dad that!! ) makes life easy to remove anything!! heat then cool with penetrene, that should break any rust etc.

    Ken
    Depending how game you are drill the broken piece of stud so as to leave a "shell" of thread only in the tapped bore. You need to centre punch the exact centre and drill in increasing sizes until the only stud threads remain.

    Then pick the remaining bits out with a scriber or awl followed by a tap to clean up the thread.

    I have to say I'd had very little luck with ezi-outs (even high quality Sutton) because once a stud is broken it's in real tight. Since it's broken twice I'd guess it is seized forever.

    Bear in mind the very worst case is to break an ezy-out off as well. The only option after that is spark erosion to get it out!

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Default Or

    You can use professional Midget stud removalists.....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails snapped head bolt-midget_studremoval1l.jpg  
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  13. #13
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    Icon14 More detailed explanation and a little bit of luck!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    Ken, easy outs aren't a good idea on a head bolt and the blocks alloy so I wouldn't put any heat on it.

    Head bolt is quite hard and the block is soft so any drilling has to be 100% acurate so without some kind or jig I wouldn't risk it and if we snap an easyout off we really are in deep poo poo.

    The offending bolt is on the exhaust side so its the hardest one to get to.
    Thats where the care and experience works in handling the process, heat in the right place (direct to stud, expands the stud and then transfers the heat (quickly) into the Alloy, quenching with penetrene contracts the stud and allows the penetrene to penetrate the thread in the alloy. Drilling has to be carefully done and use of a centre punc pop, helps keep the drill central to the stud (again that needs some careful judgement) and drilling first with a centre drill helps it keep on course.

    Before trying to remove a stud in an aluminium block, flood the thread area with penetrene and tap down on the protruding end of the stud lightly with a hammer, this will help in freeing the thread and allowing penetrant to wick into the thread area. Allow plenty of time, then of course heat is the other great persuader, may take several heatings and quenchings to make things easier. Not the time to go Bull at a gate, its gently gently and repeat, once it starts moving you are on the right track.

    The actual easy outs (Original style) are very good and you get a feel for how much torque they can wirthstand before snapping, especially on normal head stud sizes. If you do snap one you haven't been patient enough in your preparation/heating/drilling etc.

    But if you do break one, it pays to have a set of drills capable of drilling through carbon steel files (you see vendors selling them at Field Days etc. Again, careful heating and cooling and centre pop location of the drill in the web of the tool will help.

    Other than that its drill carefully to expose the base of the threadline, using drill, then perhaps a small rotary air grinder, but that is for the very careful and patient person, probably better to have the block out of the car when drilling studs.

    The final final fix where you have stuffed the other operations is to drill the block and tap oversize for a helicoil, or just chuck the block for another.

    I guess that with head studs of the modern type, you are highly dependent on whether the last person reused the head bolts or put some lubricant on the threads ( though this might interfere with the design tightning torquing)

    That's about the limit of my experience with such mongrel situations, Sh*t happenns and hopefully you have luck on your side (so far I have had that luck )

    Most times heating the studs in an aluminium block is probably more successful than the old cast iron blocks due to the difference in expansion of the metals that work in your favour.

    Someone else might have a more modern approach to solving the problem.

    ken

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    My experience is that easy-outs snap off just as easy as bolts. Therefore I support drilling the bolt (down the CENTRE) with drill bits of ever increasing size until the remnants can be picked out as mentioned above.

    Cheers, Henry

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    Bad experience here too with stud extractors. I had success in the past by filling the bolt hole with WD40 and topping it up for a week.There was next to nothing left of the bolt, but I managed to get a pair of vise grips on the stump and screw it out. I had to build up a sort of silicone "reservoir" above the block to hold the WD40 and let it seep in.

    Drilling a hardened bolt is like trying to hit the barrel and miss the duck.

    That said I would try again the WD40/pentrene whatever else you fancy for as long as I can afford and keep scratching my head in the meantime. In the words of a classic still with us unfortunately, something will pop in your head sooner or later. Hopefully not a blood vessel.

    Drilling perfectly centered is easy, just get a small drill bit, and a length of steel pipe of the diameter of the bolt hole and with a hole the size of the drill. Slip that over the drill and into the hole and geometry dictates your drillbit will be centred on the bolt. No luck though if the bolt is harder than the drillbit.

    My suggestion is to use a diamond bit and go slowly. Diamond bits don't like heat, so have some sort of coolant/cutting compound dribbling on the bit and go slowly and steadily (like a diamond drill rig). I have used successfully diamond bits on hard steel but I was going in a hole already drilled, just to hone/ream it to diameter.

    http://www.acubore.co.uk/media/catal...udry-6mm-1.jpg

    These have a larger shank so should help you center it on the bolt.
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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    T
    ....Someone else might have a more modern approach to solving the problem.

    ken
    https://www.alltools.com.au/shop/ind...V_Single_Phase

    You need break a lot of them 'tho

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    Quote Originally Posted by rubyalpine View Post
    My experience is that easy-outs snap off just as easy as bolts. Therefore I support drilling the bolt (down the CENTRE) with drill bits of ever increasing size until the remnants can be picked out as mentioned above.

    Cheers, Henry

    It is pretty well impossible to drill a bolt down the centre and possibly it will harden with the drilling heat , this happened to me with a 403 head bolt and masonry drills were needed to drill it! Probably easier in the long run to pull the engine out and take it to Colin to put on his machine so it can be accurately drilled, which is what I eventually did with the 403 engine.

    Edit: Just read Schlitz's post, could be worth trying, would be worth spending a fair bit of time getting the size of the tube right, machine it up specially would be the way.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    It is pretty well impossible to drill a bolt down the centre and possibly it will harden with the drilling heat , this happened to me with a 403 head bolt and masonry drills were needed to drill it! Probably easier in the long run to pull the engine out and take it to Colin to put on his machine so it can be accurately drilled, which is what I eventually did with the 403 engine.
    Graham
    Very true Graham.

    However, even if you are not quite centre, provided you increase drill size gradually, the broken piece normally winds out as soon as reach the major diameter of the thread Even if you just "break through" at one place.

    As mentioned earlier it's not for the faint hearted. You need a sharp set of fractional size drills and lots of patience.

  19. #19
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    Left hand bits too if you can get them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    It is pretty well impossible to drill a bolt down the centre and possibly it will harden with the drilling heat , this happened to me with a 403 head bolt and masonry drills were needed to drill it! Probably easier in the long run to pull the engine out and take it to Colin to put on his machine so it can be accurately drilled, which is what I eventually did with the 403 engine.

    Edit: Just read Schlitz's post, could be worth trying, would be worth spending a fair bit of time getting the size of the tube right, machine it up specially would be the way.
    Graham
    Colin is the answer. He's making up a jig and says he has a reverse drill bit just designed for the job. By slowly drilling with a reverse drill held nice and straight and good lubrication they usually untwist themselves. He's says he's done some 205's that way for you Graham.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rubyalpine View Post
    My experience is that easy-outs snap off just as easy as bolts. Therefore I support drilling the bolt (down the CENTRE) with drill bits of ever increasing size until the remnants can be picked out as mentioned above.

    Cheers, Henry
    I dunno, my 1956 set is still going strong, but yes I broke one of the fine ones years ago, but this is an original fluted Easy Out set of that name, not one of the modern useless stuff.

    They have done a lot of work over the years, but then I have an oxy set too and that pays for itself now and then!!

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    I dunno, my 1956 set is still going strong, but yes I broke one of the fine ones years ago, but this is an original fluted Easy Out set of that name, not one of the modern useless stuff.

    They have done a lot of work over the years, but then I have an oxy set too and that pays for itself now and then!!

    Ken
    If the head bolt broke it is highly unlikely the smaller ezi out will do the job.
    Thinking about the pipe, it is probably a no no as it will be very hard to drill straight, through such a long length of bolt. Entirely different matter for an iron block engine where the bolts usually screw into a thread at the top of the block.
    Give Colin a call and ask his advice.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    Colin is the answer. He's making up a jig and says he has a reverse drill bit just designed for the job. By slowly drilling with a reverse drill held nice and straight and good lubrication they usually untwist themselves. He's says he's done some 205's that way for you Graham.
    Also, a few 403 heads with broken exhaust studs.
    I have retained a jig for these if anyone is interested.
    Graham

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    Doesn't the XU9J4 block have the actual thread right at the base, a long way from where it's broken?

    I'd definitely be engine-outing for the location described; too many risks. Plus, if the block has grabbed the bolt so well I'd be highly suspicious of corrosion in the usual Mi16 jacket location.

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    Graham just for future reference, what size drill bit have found successful in relation to the broken bolts? Ta

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