Bleeding Drums on 205 gti. About to burn it to the ground...
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Default Bleeding Drums on 205 gti. About to burn it to the ground...

    Quick story to fill all in.

    87 GTi. Disc front, drum rear. 3 outlet Master cylinder. 1 line to rear, 1 line each to front brakes.

    Very very poor pedal, pretty much to the floor, not much stopping power. Bought the car like this, we tried bleeding when i bought it but to no avail!

    Remove and replace booster to known working one, then realise the vacuum hose was cracked and not vacuuming, had a little cry, all good, now I know how to replace a booster! ( note to others, make sure you have a loooong extension bar on your ratchet to reach the bolts under the dash to get the booster out )

    Replace vacuum hose with good one. Easy. should be sweet now aye!

    Change front brakes to S3 callipers to match my S3 hubs as S1 brakes were worn out and also changed driveshafts. Were working perfect on my old 205 3 months ago, giddy up!

    Bleed brakes, starting at the rear drivers side ( furthest from the MC ) working my way around. Get air out at each wheel with nice flow etc into bucket. Swear a little from someone having stolen my trolly jack and having to use a car jack and stands. 15 minutes later pedal feels strong and firm.

    Drive car up the drive, pedal pretty much to floor again car stops before running over old lady...nice.

    Scratch head a few times. Get pretty angry, but get over it and push on.

    Replace master cylinder to 4 port and block appropriate hole with a spare i had on my old car that was fine. Get fluid everywhere and get a little excited that this is the last thing. Clean hands and put gloves on..

    Jack up rear drivers side. Swear again from using pis*ing car jack. Remove wheel, open bleed nipple. Give the shout for pedal down to assistant...... Nothing. A few drops of fluid.... Scratch head. Try to remain calm and ponder.

    Skip that side and head over to passenger side, same thing. My dead grandma could spit more out! Throw a few tools around. Feel slightly less frustrated then walk about and pick them up. Breath.

    Skip that, go to front wheels. Perfect. Full flow, no dramas. Ponder

    Decide that perhaps the Master cylinder is rooted.

    Buy new Master cylinder, get home with excitement that its all going to work.

    ( minus 120$ and almost 2 hours of my life on the M5 getting to Kingsgrove and back to Bondi )

    Remove wheel and feel pretty confident.

    Nothing..... Throw hands in the air. March upstairs crack the biggest beer and tap madly on the Keyboard.....

    Here we are.

    Anyone have any Ideas?

    Apparently the compensators are either stuffed, or I have to jack the car up or park it on a steep hill ( have not worked out how this is possible yet ) and bleed on an angle to "open" the compensators? Sounds mighty difficult to bleed the brakes and a seriously stupid overlooked typical Peugeot thing to do... (rant)

    Pressure limiting valve?

    Master cylinder must be 3 port not 4 port with bung?

    Is there a special way of blocking the extra hole. I just used one supplied and screwed it in tight...

    If I cant sort this out I will kill someone or burn the thing to the ground. Its the last thing I have to do to drive it to the Mechanic to blue slip it. I need a car on the road, Im going Mental not having a 205 in my life. The neighbours and giving my grief to get it working and they are all on the list to hit with a mack truck if they dont put 10 socks in it...(rant )

    I tried jacking the car up as high as I could go and got the same thing... Was almost at a 35 degree angle.

    Rant over. Feel better. Thanks for reading..

    Please help

    Cam

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  2. #2
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    you need to prime the master cylinder first.

    Crack the pipes at the MC until fluid starts to come out there.

    Also, cant explain why, had the same issue with parrys car for years> One time bled the brakes with the car running and suddenly had a good pedal.

    If you still can't get fluid to the rear, crack the pipe undone until you get fluid at the compensator on the chassis rail on the passengers side engine bay.
    Adrian Wuillemin

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Awesome,

    Thanks Adrian. Makes sense. Prime MC!!

    I actually dont know a lot about fitting and refitting Master cylinders etc. Always learning.

    Ill get down there first thing tomorrow from work and give it a go...

    Will report back

    Cam
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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    I think you will not just have to prime.....you will have to actually bleed the master.
    It'll take 2 people, same as bleeding the wheel cylinders. Just crack open a line at a time, where they come out of the master. Depress pedal and hold. Tighten connection. Release pedal. Repeat. I usually hold a bit of rag over the connection or fluid squirts everywhere.

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    I don't know how many times I have cursed and sweared at bleeding 205 brakes. Your pain felt and understood.


    Chris


    205GTI - 8 valve, single cam coolness.



  6. #6
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    Sounds horrible Cam, congratulations on not lighting a match to it, I know how tempting it can be.

    I have this job coming up (need to change rear hoses and cylinders for the RWC). After reading this maybe I'll cheat and get the mechanic to do it.

    Good luck with it and let us know the issue when you find it.

    Dave

  7. #7
    1075.6 SamR's Avatar
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    Ah yes, bleeding brakes on a 205. I remember doing this job with Adrian (well Adrian did most of the work ) on my 205. First the compensator on the chassis rail was leaking, and then after that was replaced it turned out my brake booster was also leaking

    Don't burn the 205 to the ground!
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Cam,
    You may find it necessary when jacking the rear to bleed that jacking should be done at the rear axles so that the compensator is in its loaded position.
    Unless I've overlooked the obvious in prev posts?

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Jeez, did I write the above? I can't even follow it myself!!!

    To symplify. Jack the rear suspension at the axle not at the chassis.
    Even better, if you have a pit [I hate them], bleed the rear brakes with the wheels on the ground.

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Jeez, did I write the above? I can't even follow it myself!!!

    To symplify. Jack the rear suspension at the axle not at the chassis.
    Even better, if you have a pit [I hate them], bleed the rear brakes with the wheels on the ground.
    Oh yes......

    A pit is a necessary evil

    Check to see if your problem stems from flexable hose issues.
    Last christmas I delt with a friends 205 and ALL the flexable lines were R/S. you could feel the lines bulging under pressure.

    If you are unsucessful I will explane the process of reverse bleeding.
    /// 1986 SII 505 GTI
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  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Capago's Avatar
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    buy a pressure bleeder, makes it a 1 man job and gets it done in about 10 minutes. use it all the time
    The wrong oil is better than no oil at all.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Ahem. All of the above, or do this.

    Get yourself a fluid reservoir cap in good condition. Pull out all the crap underneath (fluid level sender), so you're left only with the top of the cap. cut a rubber gasket out of bicycle tube. This can be a disc. Get a bicycle valve (mechanical), without the actual valve thingie inside, drill a hole in the cap, stick the valve in, catch the gasket between the valve foot and the cap, tighten with the valve nut on top of the cap. You can use some large washers if you want. Attach a length of hose to it with a fitting for tire pumping on the end. Screw cap tightly on brake fluid reservoir. Attach tire pumping fitting to your own wheel valve. Make sure there is no air leak. Now you have a head of pressure which will push brake fluid when you crack open any bleeding nipple, or the MC pipes. Keep an eye on the fluid level so you don't run the MC dry.

    Bleed MC as explained above. Bleed brake lines now.

    As you probably guessed, all this is so you can do the whole job on your own.

    I bleed the brakes without removing the wheels. It is not easy, but you can do it. You just need to get down and dirty a bit when doing the rear wheels. The front wheels are a lot easier as you can see the nipples through the wheel (perhaps not if you have pepperpots).

    Use a small ring spanner (I think you need a 7mm) on the nipple just under the drain tube, such that you have enough travel to do and undo (open/close) the nipple enough to bleed.

    One last hint. I actually use a brake fluid reservoir cap from an old BMW (2002 is the model, without fluid level sender). A lot easier to make the contraption I described above, and the thread fits a lot of cars.

    Good luck.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 26th June 2012 at 11:16 PM.
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  13. #13
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Burning it to the ground....

    Bleed MC. Lots of air out, lots of mess.

    Back left wheel removed, fluid now coming through. Bleed lots through to get all air out get air out etc.

    Do a complete round of the car. Got air out form each wheel, used almost 2 full containers of fluid to make sure there was no air. Positive there is no air.

    Still no f*cking brakes. They just fall to the floor. They feel slightly different to before. Hard to explain. THey went straight to the floor before and hit that hard spot, where as now its like a hot knife through butter and then a little bit of pressure.

    Just to confirm.

    New Booster. New MC. New front pads, rotors from S3 gti. New vacuum hose. No air leaks.

    I reckon the drums are the cause.... No idea why but just have never trusted them ( probably cause Ive never bothered to learn how they work properly ). They were probably hearing all the swear words I was throwing at them and have ganged up on me.

    Any ideas? There is NO air in the lines. The pedal hard when engine off.

    Is someone prepared to do this for me as I will honestly kill someone if I have to take off and put on another wheel on those stupid european hub designs and bleed brakes to just fail at it. FFS why are these things so hard to get right!!!!

    Cam
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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Cam, if you take off the fluid reservoir cap and open up a bleed nipple on the rear wheels do you see any fluid coming out? No pressure on the pedal. Maybe your lines are caked up with gunk?

    Try to flush the system with methylated spirits completely. Sorry to hear your predicament. I would still encourage you to try the trick I explained.

    I will have to do the same exercise soon (this week end), maybe I'll take some pictures for you.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  15. #15
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    i dont have any brilliant suggestions, but just some thoughts...

    given this is a split system, there *should* be no way that a problem at the rear, can make the front brakes completely ineffective. after all, that is the purpose of the split system, right?

    so if you have bled the whole lot, and still have no brakes at all or to stop the car, then *logically speaking*, (yes, i know, i know..), the problem should be in the m/c.

    further, if the pedal is hard when the motor is off, and goes to the floor when it is running, then that suggests involvement of the booster, and of course it is attached to the m/c. so i think that is where i would be applying my attention.

    i recently put a new m/c in my lotus. a dual master from i dont know what. i was surprised that the internals seemed to be coated with some sort of preserving goo. i dont know if that is normal, or if compatible with brake fluid, but i washed all the bits with metho. is the m/c you bought definitely good to simply bolt in? perhaps it required some fiddling before use? i realise that you had this problem prior to the new m/c, which suggests other causes, so just floating ideas.

    btw, i am in surry hills. i can lend you a pair of axle stands and a home use size trolley jack if you like.

    alexander.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! Bluey's Avatar
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    Clamp off all 4 flexible lines preferably with turtle clamps but vice grips will work if you're careful.
    If the pedal doesn't go rock hard then you either have a massive airlock or the master cylinder is RS.
    Next take off a clamp from one of the front lines. Check pedal travel and feel. There should be an increase in travel and feel. Put clamp back on, check another, and so on. If there is a massive increase in pedal travel when one of the clamps is removed then this will tell you at which wheel/s the problem is occuring.

    S3 front calipers
    S1 drums
    What master cyl? S1? S3?

    Have you adjusted up the drums?

  17. #17
    Gone Fishin' Haakon's Avatar
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    There's always the bad luck theory - I once went batshit insane before finally concluding the brand new master cylinder was stuffed. Ken of course swapped it and all was well.

    Must have sat around in a warehouse too long maybe, or just a dud from Bendix.

    Weird stuff happens.

  18. #18
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    So can you get any pressure up by pumping the pedal? If you do then it might indicate some air still in there.

    Alternatively, if both sets of rear shoes were way out of adjustment (too much clearance) that can give the same symptom - all the pressure goes into trying to get the shoes to touch the drums. Alexander pointed out that it's a split system, but don't those systems usually have both front and one rear in each "system"? I'm sure they don't have one for the back and one for the front...

    Bluey's clamping suggestion would certainly help to isolate fault - the flexible tubes aren't braided stainless steel are they?

    Cheers

    Alec

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    I'm with Bluey and Armadillo.
    Rear brake shoe adjustment. Even if they are self adjusting they may need basic adjustment, sometimes to the point of being difficult to refit the drums.

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    I adjusted my 505 wagon rear drums perfectly once. Drove into a parking space and wheels locked whilst trying to reverse out
    Apparently it's a known phenomenon if you adjust them TOO close.

  21. #21
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    I sort of have the same problem.

    Firstly, incorrect drum adjustment won't effect front brake pressure.
    It's a split system.
    Incorrect drum adjustment will be noticed as soon as it's adjusted...

    I just replaced pads, discs, rebuilt front calipers and master cylinder.

    Master cyl decided to just give out completely whilst sitting at a red light. Was fun drive to work.

    Got m/c, fitted. Easy. Bleed it on the bench with one plunge, then threw it on the car and just bled from pipes on m/c, then went around the car twice, then bled all connections.
    Just to be sure.

    Still. Pedal travel is good. Not as good as a new car, but good for something so old.

    Pulls up nice when tested.

    Drive it for a bit, decide to test brakes some more.

    Noticing only rear wheel lock up and no front.

    This is where I'm at. Oh I have rear discs. No drums.


    Next I will be checking out the brake hoses buldging.

    Cant be anything else. Its such a simple system.
    This is what I keep telling myself with this car.
    Going in for roadworthy next week!

    I'm keen for an answer!

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    I changed my beam to a disc version, bled system once, almost perfect. Drums are to female and I'm too young to have a care factor a out working them out just yet.

    Cam
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
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  23. #23
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    Think I must've got lucky, a few months ago I rebuilt the front calipers, put new hoses in and bled the front, then a couple of weeks ago I replaced the rear wheel cylinders and rear hoses and bled the back. Got a good pedal first time with both. I use a little Kincrome one man bleed kit I bought for a few bucks about 13 years ago, still works a treat.

    I don't mind the feel of the S1/2 discs up the front and the drums on the back, the fronts do lock before the back but with new rubber in the dry it does take a good shove to lock up the front, kind of an early form of abs!

  24. #24
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cam85 View Post
    I changed my beam to a disc version, bled system once, almost perfect. Drums are to female and I'm too young to have a care factor a out working them out just yet.

    Cam
    Sounds like bliss, but the hard way.

    Wonder what the problem actually was?

    Back to Wildebeeste's comments about rear load compensator and jacking up the car etc, did you change all fo that with the new beam. All very odd. Hopefully none of us will encounter this again!!

    The good side is (a) good brakes, (b) you have lots of new bits in the brakes and (c) you have full disc setup now.

    Thanks for a fascinating post.
    JohnW

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