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  1. #1
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Default More boost!

    Here's the situation: The most boost I'm able to get out of the 505 wagon is about 24psi. It goes very well at this level, but blows a fair bit of black smoke. From low revs and zero boost, when you put your foot down, it blows a little smoke which quickly disappears as boost builds, running completely clean (to the naked eye) from about 5psi up to 18psi. Beyond this however, it starts to blow smoke again, and by the 24psi limit it's belching.

    So after some discussion with some turbo diesel experts, the conclusion that we've come to is that after 18psi, the wastegate spring is not strong enough to hold the wastegate shut, and the pressure in the manifold and turbine housing is escaping past the wastegate, so the amount of fuel required to increase the boost above 18psi increases exponentially, causing the smoke.

    Now - I have a setup on the wagon whereby I have reduced the wastegate tension from the factory 7psi to about 4 psi, to minimise pumping losses when cruising on the highway and increase efficiency. I have a valve on the throttle so that when you get to about 50% WOT, the wastegate hose is 'disconnected' from the manifold boost and therefore goes into an 'overboost' condition - effectively unrestricted boost, limited only by the amount of fuel injected. And apparently now, by the strength of the spring in the wastegate.

    So, I have possibly come up with a solution.

    Can anyone think of any reason why I couldn't connect the vacuum source to the wastegate above the 50% WOT mark? The theory here is that applying a vacuum (in this car, approximately -13psi) to the wastegate, it will effectively add an extra 13psi 'spring strength' to the wastegate actuator.

    The only thing I can think of is that since the wastegate is not designed to operate this way, I might damage a diaphragm or something. But I also think they should be fairly robust.

    Has anyone heard of this being done before? Google has been of no help to me on this one!

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    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

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  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Haakon's Avatar
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    Isn't 24 psi a hell of a lot of boost anyway...? I'd be worried that 24+13 psi would detonate the engine into a messy mess...

  3. #3
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Nah, these XD engines are as tough as old boots. So long as you keep exhaust gas temps below about 700-750 degrees, you shouldn't melt valves or pistons.

    I'm aiming for 30psi (2 bar), but more importantly, I want it to be clean.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

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    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    What you are talking about is the old 'Dial a destruct' turbo set ups. Have a say a 9 PSI spring in the wastegate and a bypass switch to add pressure to the spring 'setting' and therefore double the pressure....9 plus 9= and
    Much better with an electronic actuator, at least when it goes pear shaped you can blame the computer!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Can anyone think of any reason why I couldn't connect the vacuum source to the wastegate above the 50% WOT mark? The theory here is that applying a vacuum (in this car, approximately -13psi) to the wastegate, it will effectively add an extra 13psi 'spring strength' to the wastegate actuator.
    Umm, I may have missed a step eher but if you have more than 50% throttle opening and the engine is producing boost, where is the vacuum coming from?

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Bluey, I've been running 18psi for nearly 5 years on this motor with no adverse affects. There are people (some on this forum!) running a lot more, albeit with bigger turbos than mine.

    I'm not really keen on anything electronic in this engine bay. I'm trying to keep it as 'low-tech' as possible. So much more reliable! I'm not overly concerned about boost spikes or anything, as the engine can't boost beyond a level proportional to the amount of fuel injected - a limit which I can control easily simply by turning a screw.

    mistareno, from the vacuum pump. These old rattlers don't have a throttle plate, so there is never any manifold vacuum (unless your air filter is blocked or your turbo seized!), hence the fitment of a vacuum pump for the brakes (and HVAC controls and cruise control). It was probably a bit misleading of me to call it a throttle, perhaps 'accelerator' is more appropriate.

    Though I have been thinking of fitting a throttle plate, but that's a story for a whole different thread.....
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Fellow Frogger! callipygous's Avatar
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    So, from 7psi to over 20psi? How does it go? I always wondered how these GTDs would go with some real boost.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    I always thought big boost figures as quoted were that called upon by Spitfire pilots, 'battle boost' to shake off that Messerschmidt clinging to its date!!

  9. #9
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Spitfires also had the benefit of 27 litres of displacement, 12 cylinders, twin staged superchargers and water methanol injection.

    Can't fit a merlin in a 505 engine bay, and I'd have to get a mortgage for the fuel bill!

    Callipygous, it certainly goes well. I test drove a 505 a couple of weeks ago, and couldn't get over how sluggish it was by comparison. The XD2S is without a doubt significantly faster than anything powered by a naturally aspirated ZDJ engine, and is a match for any other modern family car. It also does some stunning powerslides, even in the dry, but I certainly can't afford the tyres!

    The problem is at the moment that I'm happy with the power output, but not with the amount of smoke that it's creating when I'm using that power. I just want to get a bit more air into the motor to clean up the burn a bit.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Fellow Frogger! callipygous's Avatar
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    Nice. I wouldn't mind a diesel if I could get one that put out some decent power. I toyed with the idea of fitting a 407HDi engine at one stage, but the electronic crap and fitting it put me off. Never toyed with the idea of a 505 GTD motor (that's what you're talking about, right?) as I drove a 405 SRDT once, and found it sluggish, 505 would have been worse.

    Power slides out of a 505 GTD? Damn! I'd love to see that! Bring it when you come to pick up the exhaust, please

    Any idea what it's putting out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Spitfires also had the benefit of 27 litres of displacement, 12 cylinders, twin staged superchargers and water methanol injection.

    Can't fit a merlin in a 505 engine bay, and I'd have to get a mortgage for the fuel bill!

    Callipygous, it certainly goes well. I test drove a 505 a couple of weeks ago, and couldn't get over how sluggish it was by comparison. The XD2S is without a doubt significantly faster than anything powered by a naturally aspirated ZDJ engine, and is a match for any other modern family car. It also does some stunning powerslides, even in the dry, but I certainly can't afford the tyres!

    The problem is at the moment that I'm happy with the power output, but not with the amount of smoke that it's creating when I'm using that power. I just want to get a bit more air into the motor to clean up the burn a bit.
    A mate of mine has a few diesels and is thinking of rallying one. He has run one on high boost for a while now and yes, it feels like a V8!
    The factory run some deisels for a while and got 10th outright in the Acropolis Rally (WRC), better than they ever did in the 504 coupes!
    Graham

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    Fellow Frogger! Uffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    I'm not really keen on anything electronic in this engine bay. I'm trying to keep it as 'low-tech' as possible. So much more reliable!
    I don't see any problem with applying vaccuum to the diaphragm, you would need to include a valve to prevent this happening under 50% WOT obviously but you could also include a regulator so you could just dial in the amount of vacuum you need to keep the wastegate shut if you're worried about applying the full 13psi against the diaphragm.

    Bluey's dial a destruct method would also work and might be simpler. You could buy one of these wastegate valves:

    http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Thirt...7/article.html

    and rig to apply pressure to the opposite side of the diaphragm once boost goes past something like 6psi. which would equate to something like half throttle and still allow cruising bypass. This would neatly balance the boost on the other side and you could get rid of all the other plumbing and keep the wastegate spring pressure light.
    Last edited by Uffee; 30th August 2011 at 10:44 AM. Reason: bit more detail
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    Fellow Frogger! Uffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    The most boost I'm able to get out of the 505 wagon is about 24psi. It goes very well at this level, but blows a fair bit of black smoke.
    So when you've fixed this problem, what's the next mod?

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    callipygous - haven't had it on a dyno, if I did it would purely be an exercise in curiosity, as you don't need a dyno to tune a diesel like this.
    You can very easily get good power and amazing torque from a diesel, but there is a stigma attached to them that they are slow, noisy and smelly. The fact of the matter is that diesels were marketed as an economical alternative to the petrol engine, despite the higher initial cost. The great thing about diesels is that they are built tough enough already to cope with some serious boost, and the entire principle of the diesel lends itself to forced induction. Not to mention that I still get 8 litres/100km around town, and about 5.5-6 on the highway. It's the ideal compromise for my situation.

    Graham - I wonder what mods they had done to the factory diesels for such a race. I'm guessing that it probably wasn't very much!

    Toby - I don't think a mechanical boost controller is much help to me, as I'm already operating well beyond the point where they can be of any effect. I'm starting to think that there won't be a problem applying vacuum to the wastegate. I think I'll just do it and find out.

    As for the next mod, either a newer, smaller turbo, or throttle valve on the intake controlling intake manifold pressure to slightly below atmospheric, to reduce the effective compression ratio and therefore pumping losses at cruise. I haven't completely convinced myself that it's going to be particularly effective, but I think the concept is certainly worth exploring.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Fellow Frogger! callipygous's Avatar
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    Yes - I've known this for a long time that diesels can be boosted up. I've never actually talked to someone who has done it. I just remember them being used for tractor pulls, where one tractor tries to out pull another in what can only be described as a pissing contest.

    That sounds pretty impressive that you can get such great mileage! Is it much work to boost them up? Just fit a boost controller to the waste gate actuator?

    So is this 3.0L? Did you get it bored/stroked?

    How much can a 2.5L GTD motor cost to attain these days, just out of curiosity?

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by callipygous View Post
    Yes - I've known this for a long time that diesels can be boosted up. I've never actually talked to someone who has done it. I just remember them being used for tractor pulls, where one tractor tries to out pull another in what can only be described as a pissing contest.

    That sounds pretty impressive that you can get such great mileage! Is it much work to boost them up? Just fit a boost controller to the waste gate actuator?

    So is this 3.0L? Did you get it bored/stroked?

    How much can a 2.5L GTD motor cost to attain these days, just out of curiosity?
    The great thing about the diesel is that no matter how much boost you run, no matter what mods you've done to the motor, if you're only injecting a small amount of fuel to cruise on the highway, you will still get terrific fuel consumption.

    Mine is only 2.3. It's more than enough.

    Don't waste your time or money on the 2.5. For the slight increase in displacement (less than 10%) and slightly larger valves (not an issue in a low-revving engine like these), a 10% increase in boost pressure will compensate. So the XD3T with 11psi stock (or 25.7psia) will make virtually the same power as an XD2S running 13.2psi.

    The difference is that the shorter stroke of the XD2S allows it to rev much more freely, and therefore brings the potential for power production, particularly at higher revs, to on par with a similarly sized turbo-petrol engine.

    The XD2S feels like a petrol engine to drive. The XD3T feels like a truck engine.

    An XD2S can be had for a couple of hundred dollars in good shape (they're all in good shape!!). Expect to have to reseal the injection pump too (I charge $250 for the Bosch VE pump).

    XD3Ts cost more, and are very hard to come by. They also come with the Lucas/Delphi pump that has proven to be less reliable than the Bosch pump. Both pumps are completely compatible though, so you can fit them to the other engine.

    The other thing is that you don't actually need an XD2S! I turbocharged a plain XD2 engine in my 504 motorhome, and it went remarkably well. If I were to turbocharge another XD engine, I would start with an NA engine. The slightly more aggressive cams and higher compression ratio gave it much better response off-boost and fuel consumption was remarkably good for a 3.5 tonne vehicle.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! callipygous's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the interesting info. How does it say, compare to the latest Peugeot HDi models? They're impressive, and if yours goes as well or better than them, I'd be curious to know.

  18. #18
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    I haven't really been in any of the latest HDi's. The 505 certainly goes better than my 306 HDi and is quicker than my father's 406 HDi. I have been for a test 'ride' in a 508 HDi, but I wasn't driving, and the driver was.... boring. So I don't know how well it actually goes.

    Remember also that the 505 has a 30 year old engine and weighs 1.5 tonnes.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! callipygous's Avatar
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    Yeah, but it has potential if you can run ridiculous amounts of boost.

    What turbo do they have on them? Would a T04 be suitable?

  20. #20
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    From the factory they have a T3. I'm looking at putting a GT28 or similar on it instead. The newer, ball bearing turbos will still give a lot more top-end than the old-tech T3 is capable of, but will spool up much faster, giving me the best spread of torque across the rev range of the engine.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Fellow Frogger! callipygous's Avatar
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    Where in Brisbane are you?

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    Fellow Frogger! Uffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    XD3Ts cost more, and are very hard to come by. They also come with the Lucas/Delphi pump.
    *cough* Bosch VE *cough*
    504 GL Coupe '73 Silver
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  23. #23
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uffee View Post
    *cough* Bosch VE *cough*
    Then yours has been changed.

    A common thing to do when the Lucas dies, which happens regularly.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Fellow Frogger! Uffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Then yours has been changed.

    A common thing to do when the Lucas dies, which happens regularly.
    I'm 99% sure it originially had a bosch pump, the part numbers for the injectors and pump match part no. lists I've found for the 152A (XD3T)

    Threads like this are inspiring and annoying at the same time, I'm keen to wind up a bit of boost now but don't have any time until the weekend...

    I think throttle plates in diesels were only ever used by the Japanese manufacturers to reduce NOx emissions rather than reduce pumping losses. The argument is that diesels have less pumping losses due to the lack of throttle but on closer inspection this doesn't really make sense, especially if you subscribe to another argument that diesels have more engine braking.
    Last edited by Uffee; 31st August 2011 at 10:36 AM.
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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Well, there is now vacuum applied full time to the wastegate, and the smoke under boost problem has been fixed!

    So I've had a play with it and added a bit more fuel to try to get more boost..... and now I have a boost leak. I got the boost to about 26psi before I started hearing the hissing, and now it won't go above 18psi. I've had a look around, but can't find the leak yet, but some of the plumbing connections are a bit difficult to get to.

    I've been meaning to put a bead of weld around the ends of each of the intercooler pipes to stop the pipes blowing off, but haven't gotten around to it yet. I'm just hoping that I haven't blown a hole in the intercooler!

    The next problem is trying to find a balance between smoke and power. With the previous settings I had a faint shadow of smoke when you planted your foot from idle, now I have a good puff. I think I'm reaching the tuning limits of this pump. To get enough fuel at high rpm and high boost, I now have too much fuel at low rpm, despite having retracted the 'off boost' fuel setting to it's lowest level. I may have to start looking at other pumps.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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