Supercharging a PRV V6
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default Supercharging a PRV V6

    Hi All,

    Can anyone shed some light on supercharging a PRV V6?

    Costs? Where to go in Melbourne? What kind of 'charger? Any kits available etc..

    Thanks!

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john. View Post
    Hi All,

    Can anyone shed some light on supercharging a PRV V6?

    Costs? Where to go in Melbourne? What kind of 'charger? Any kits available etc..

    Thanks!
    Welcome to AF.

    Demannu is you man. He had/has a PRV V6 with twin turbos on LPG.

    He will probably see your post and reply.

    It won't cheap. And everything will be custom manufacture.

    There is quite a range of parts which mix and match from the various Renault, Peugeot and Volvo V6s but there are subtle traps to be avoided.

    I'll leave further advice to those more knowledgeable on V6 than I.

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    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    A chap in the Peugeot club supercharged a V6 in a 505. I think it went pretty well but he pranged it and then sold the engine.
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    1000+ Posts 504-504-504's Avatar
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    I'd use an Eaton M62, smaller model than that used for the v8s.
    Remove the water pump and plumbing and the Eaton would nestle nicely in the V.
    Coolant circulation could be taken care of with an electric water pump.
    There is also a self learning fuel injection unit meant to replace Holleys that could be combined with it.
    Maybe one day I will try it out. See how it goes with the triple throat webers first.


    Paul

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Welcome to AF.

    Demannu is you man. He had/has a PRV V6 with twin turbos on LPG.

    He will probably see your post and reply.

    It won't cheap. And everything will be custom manufacture.

    There is quite a range of parts which mix and match from the various Renault, Peugeot and Volvo V6s but there are subtle traps to be avoided.

    I'll leave further advice to those more knowledgeable on V6 than I.
    You might be thinking of OddfireV6. He has two turbos. I only have one.

    There is heaps of info about forced induction on PRVs around the net. There were several models that came from factory with turbochargers (R25 V6 turbo, Alpine GTV, A310, A610, Venturi Atlantique, Renault Safrane Biturbo, and more). The general consensus is that the block is strong and rigid enough to comfortably cope with impressive power and torque figures.

    The weak spot with factory pistons is detonation. If the engine pings, it will damage the ring lands. Later model engines (even fire) have different piston designs with the rings lower down the piston. 2850 evenfire pistons are a perfect fit into earlier 2850 oddfire engines, if you had a preference for the earlier engine.

    Later heads also flow better than early heads. The intake ports were moved further upwards in the head, and there are good benefits to be gained from the more direct inlet path. However, emissions controlled engines that we got in Australia had a 'swirl canal' fitted - a large lump of aluminium cast into the intake port around the valve guide. Good for creating swirl for complete combustion, but not good for the airflow necessary for good power.

    3 litre heads had larger valves and no 'swirl canal'. The pick of the bunch.

    The actual fitting of a supercharger should be fairly straightforward. You could either mount it directly to a customised or modified manifold, or (my preference) mount it directly to the top of one of the banks similar to the air conditioner compressor. This also gives you the advantage of being able to run an intercooler, beneficial for both power production and also to prevent pinging.

    AF'er Erska is in the process of supercharging his 24 valve 3 litre PRV, and has made an impressive manifold to run the supercharger in conjunction with electronic fuel injection.
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    There are several water to air intercoolers available for the V6 Commodores that are basically a sandwich construction so the supercharger still sits in the valley but and has a nice short path the inlet.


    An E90 would probably be a good supercharger to get as they are widely available and the Commodore engine is very similar in physical size to the PRV so it would probably fit between the banks nicely if you have the bonnet clearance.

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno View Post
    There are several water to air intercoolers available for the V6 Commodores that are basically a sandwich construction so the supercharger still sits in the valley but and has a nice short path the inlet.


    An E90 would probably be a good supercharger to get as they are widely available and the Commodore engine is very similar in physical size to the PRV so it would probably fit between the banks nicely if you have the bonnet clearance.
    Yes, a very good system, but you can't use this with a carby, only fuel injection.
    Scotty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Yes, a very good system, but you can't use this with a carby, only fuel injection.
    Sorry. I had assumed fuel injection.

    With the cost and availability of EFI would people even bother with a suck through petrol carby these days?

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno View Post
    Sorry. I had assumed fuel injection.

    With the cost and availability of EFI would people even bother with a suck through petrol carby these days?
    So true. Carbies and turbos have never really been an ideal mix.
    Scotty

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    Tadpole
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    Thanks for your help thus far. You've been very detailed an informative..

    The engine in question is the 2.8 PRV V6 that you would find in a 1981 DeLorean.

    Kinda hoping this adds a bit more flavour to this discussion as well

    Anyways, does anyone know of a place in melbourne that can make the manifold? Any know of any idea of cost?

    Thanks!

  11. #11
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    In Melbourne I don't know anyone, but I can strongly recommend a performance automotive aluminium fabricator in Adelaide. He does work for people all over the country, if you want details let me know. Top quality stuff.

    The 2.8 in the delorean (you really have a delorean?) is basically the same as the injected Renault 30, and 99% similar to the Volvo 26x and early 760s, as well as the injected Peugeot 604s.

    They are an oddfire motor, with the twin-plenum intake manifold. I've often looked at those manifolds and thought that if you machined off the top of it, you can weld a flange to the remaining section for either a supercharger or, as I was thinking, individual throttle bodies.

    The other problem you would need to overcome is the K-jet injection. There has been a fair bit of discussion on here about forced induction and K-jet, and the general consensus is that while it is certainly possible (Porsche did it), it is a lot of mucking around and would greatly outweigh the expense of just getting a programmable injection system fitted, which would also perform much better without the restriction of the mechanical airflow metering device.
    Scotty

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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Have a look at www.renaultalpine.co.uk and look up Stunned Monkey to find modifications done to DeLoreans. Some have fitted the turbo efi evenfire engine from a GTA V6 Turbo, and if looking at forced induction would be an easier way to go rather than inventing the wheel by Supercharging the PRV.

    Clee on the above Alpine site has a lot of knowledge of modification of these engines and a lot of spare parts.

    If you used the manifolding of the GTA Turbo on your Delorean this would give you all of the turbo mounts and tubing and efi set up with minimal pain.
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  13. #13
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    Have a look at www.renaultalpine.co.uk and look up Stunned Monkey to find modifications done to DeLoreans. Some have fitted the turbo efi evenfire engine from a GTA V6 Turbo, and if looking at forced induction would be an easier way to go rather than inventing the wheel by Supercharging the PRV.

    Clee on the above Alpine site has a lot of knowledge of modification of these engines and a lot of spare parts.

    If you used the manifolding of the GTA Turbo on your Delorean this would give you all of the turbo mounts and tubing and efi set up with minimal pain.

    That is the perfect resource!

    I'll do some more research there. Thanks!

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    In Melbourne I don't know anyone, but I can strongly recommend a performance automotive aluminium fabricator in Adelaide. He does work for people all over the country, if you want details let me know. Top quality stuff.

    The 2.8 in the delorean (you really have a delorean?) is basically the same as the injected Renault 30, and 99% similar to the Volvo 26x and early 760s, as well as the injected Peugeot 604s.

    They are an oddfire motor, with the twin-plenum intake manifold. I've often looked at those manifolds and thought that if you machined off the top of it, you can weld a flange to the remaining section for either a supercharger or, as I was thinking, individual throttle bodies.

    The other problem you would need to overcome is the K-jet injection. There has been a fair bit of discussion on here about forced induction and K-jet, and the general consensus is that while it is certainly possible (Porsche did it), it is a lot of mucking around and would greatly outweigh the expense of just getting a programmable injection system fitted, which would also perform much better without the restriction of the mechanical airflow metering device.
    Yes there is a Delorean in Melbourne as I have seen it with my own eyes. A supercharger would suit the task on a number of level's; 1 Unique, AKA Delorean, 2 Less thermal load under the hood, pull air in via an intercooler through compressor and into manifold and for the sake of your sanity use aftermarket EFI! Big bore extractors are the go as you need to get the hot gases away quickly, there is not a lot of useful air flow for cooling in a rear engined car.
    Unless the car is designed for turbo's and rear engined then the outcome is poor as the confined space means unless more air transfer through is done then more headaches that a "cuppa tea, Bex and a lie down " will solve will occur. IMHO.
    Last edited by bluey504; 28th August 2011 at 06:59 PM. Reason: syntax

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluey504 View Post
    ... pull air in via an intercooler through compressor and into manifold..
    It usually works better if the intercooler is after the compressor...

    You can't really cool ambient air with ambient air.

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    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno View Post
    It usually works better if the intercooler is after the compressor...

    You can't really cool ambient air with ambient air.
    Yes if it was a turbo, but I was talking about a supercharger. The gain is really bugger all but it is a way to at least have some street cred! Just run a water to air inter cooler with a high ratio ethanol fluid and a 3 or 4 to 1 surface area heat exchanger and see what happens!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluey504 View Post
    Yes if it was a turbo, but I was talking about a supercharger. The gain is really bugger all but it is a way to at least have some street cred! Just run a water to air inter cooler with a high ratio ethanol fluid and a 3 or 4 to 1 surface area heat exchanger and see what happens!
    I think you've got your wires crossed somewhere along the line.

    The intercooler always goes after the compressor, whether that compressor be a supercharger or a turbocharger.

    Otherwise you'd be trying to cool down non compressed ambient temperature air. It would actually impede performance and achieve nothing except adding dead weight to the car.

    Many people do run intercoolers with a supercharger and on V configuration engines the most popular option is often a 'sandwich' style water to air one as pictured a few posts back that fits between the supercharger outlet and the manifold.

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    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    It is the effective charge temperature into the engine that is what's the pressing issue....How you get there is a matter of lateral thinking.

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluey504 View Post
    Unless the car is designed for turbo's and rear engined then the outcome is poor as the confined space means unless more air transfer through is done then more headaches that a "cuppa tea, Bex and a lie down " will solve will occur. IMHO.
    The Alpine GTA V6 Turbo is rear engined (and a PRV) although the intercooler effectiveness is certainly not as good as a front mount on a front engined car. The water to air intercooler units that PWR sell are very good for this application and have been used on quite a few GTA Turbos.

    The main engine cooling is still done via a front radiator and long connecting tubes on both the GTA and DeLorean and is very effective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    The Alpine GTA V6 Turbo is rear engined (and a PRV) although the intercooler effectiveness is certainly not as good as a front mount on a front engined car. The water to air intercooler units that PWR sell are very good for this application and have been used on quite a few GTA Turbos.

    The main engine cooling is still done via a front radiator and long connecting tubes on both the GTA and DeLorean and is very effective.

    Would it just be a better option if I found a Alpine GTA V6 engine, gearbox, ancilaries etc..?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno View Post
    The intercooler always goes after the compressor, whether that compressor be a supercharger or a turbocharger.
    That's why, strictly speaking, it's not an intercooler at all but an aftercooler.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uffee View Post
    That's why, strictly speaking, it's not an intercooler at all but an aftercooler.
    thank you

    the amount of times i have tried to explain that one are countless and to be honest to most younger folk out there having something called an aftercooler is just not going to sell like something called an intercooler

    having the word after in there for a performance item just doesn't ring true with the greater unwashed
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uffee View Post
    That's why, strictly speaking, it's not an intercooler at all but an aftercooler.
    It's an "intake cooler" ... as in "cools the air being taken into the motor". The reason for putting after the compressor is ..... Well the air going into the compressor is already ambient temperature ... The air coming out is bloody hot .... (think of a glowing red hot turbo)... Now the cooler the air is ... the denser it is .... so if you can now cool that pressurised air after the compressor has heated it ... you'll get more power, better fuel economy and less pinging.

    My car doesn't even have an intercooler .... I should fit one someday.

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Intercooler - Intermediate Cooler
    Hence called because of it's position 'intermediate' to the turbo and intake - or in-between them.

    I'm sorry, but the idea of putting one before the turbo is absurd. Can you explain how it might work?
    Scotty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Intercooler - Intermediate Cooler
    Hence called because of it's position 'intermediate' to the turbo and intake - or in-between them.

    I'm sorry, but the idea of putting one before the turbo is absurd. Can you explain how it might work?
    I'll be pedantic here, Intercooler because it goes between compressor stages, aftercooler when it goes between the final compressor and the engine...
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