wide band o2 for tuning
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Default wide band o2 for tuning

    I know there are guys on here who have done the mega squirt or similar ecu upgrade, and I'm curious to how people have gone about tuning their cars.
    The concept of spending a large whack on a dyno does not apeal to me when I have perfectly good hills and an assistant ready to punch buttons for me.
    In relation to wide band o2 sensors for self tuning ones own car, has anyone had anything to do with this mob??
    http://wbo2.com/home/products.htm

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    They are an aussie company and their product seems to suit my budget.


    Jo

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I use an Innovate setup ie LSU 4.2 + LC-1 controller + guage.

    http://www.oxygensensor.net/innovate_motorsports.php

    It's hard to go past the 3781 XD kit for US$348.

    You can also put the AFR display on your laptop (via USB).

    Note that the LSU 4.2 is only US$47.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    OH no, option anxiety will set in now.

    Does the unit you have spit out 1v or is a 5v device that you step down???


    Jo

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Do a search on the Innovate web site. You can download the manual, wiring diagram and software for the LC-1. It has outputs for both 0-5V and 0-1V, in addition to serial in/out. It can also be programmed for other fuels eg LPG, diesel, ethanol etc.

    '92 205 Mi16
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  5. #5
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Does the unit you have spit out 1v or is a 5v device that you step down???


    Jo
    I know the answer now that I've read the manual.
    I like this unit...Fuego coloured gauge and all.
    http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=273&page=2

    It looks far simpler than the ones I linked.
    Thanks for the link, Peter.

    Jo

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    I use an Innovate setup ie LSU 4.2 + LC-1 controller + guage.
    .
    peter, are you able to explain the relationship between the LC-1 controller, and the LM-2 gauge? i think the latter is the LC-1 with an integral digital display. is that about it?

  7. #7
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    Default Wideband O2 sensors.

    Hi
    Its hard to go past the Innovate items particularly with the dollar so high(not so high, up, down, lower -----??) I have a friend who has his permanently in and his laptop by his side. Always looking for that extra something !!!! A bit unsafe actually so be sensible, not obsessive!!

    For the sake of completeness I could point out that Silicon Chip did a couple of kits for a wide band o2 controller and readout last year. These are available from the usual suspects; Jaycar etc. Probably not too much cheaper than the otherway but a learning experience if you wish to build them.
    Cheers Jaahn

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I'm not familiar with the LM-2 gauge but it appears to have a built in controller, similar to this model:

    http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php

    It is nice to have the flexibility of the LC-1 and being able to hook up to a laptop, but the all in one is certainly very attractive for the price.

    When tuning under pressure, it's nice to minimise the time looking between the AFR and making a change.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    I have another question for you, Peter.
    How do you rate the autronic auto tune???
    My autronic has had the function added to it aparently.

    Do you utelise this function when tuning, or do you just make changes to the map manually??



    Jo

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I'm fairly sure that Autotune only works with an Autronic analyser. They use to be around $2K.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    jo,having a snoop around, i see there is someone in australia selling all these Innovate products and kits on ebay for the same price as the Innovate website, but no shipping costs.

    there is also a second hand but unused LC-1 on ebay in oz at the moment. 2 days to go. no bids as yet. well, not until the last 40 seconds of the auction, as usual!

    item number: 280724422365

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    A bargain at $90.Grab that, then buy an LSU 4.2 for US$47 (landed for around AUS$60) and you're away. You can feed the LC-1 output directly into a USB port. Displays as per attachment with LogWorks3 software.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails wide band o2 for tuning-logworks3.jpg  

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    "The enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge"
    Stephen Hawking

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    For anyone interested, I bought and installed the lc1 wideband controller after advice from PeterT.

    By the time I finished the instal 3 days had passed, but that is my way....slow.

    SO how does it work???

    Probably very well, but the gauge is pinned to the lean side of its travel.

    Both me and my flat mate sitting in the car last night agree's that the smell we were smelling, although typically fuego, was anything BUT lean, so it was declared that the gauge is bot showing what is realy happening.

    A quick test on the V meter showed 4.8v on the lc1 output, which on a 0-5v scale is pinned to the end, so the gauge works fine.

    Going for the obvious first, I have a franken-ziller exhaust manifold set up, which has to be sucking O2 in at idle.
    There is no other simple explanation to the readings, so I've ordered a new gasket set, and will return to the cast R21 exhaust and get a new secondary pipe made up and start again with a sealed exhaust manifold.

    A question for PeterT....
    You said you monitor the lc1 via usb. Do you run a serial adaptor, and can you run a USB (LC1) and a serial (autronic) device at the same time???


    Jo

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! Uffee's Avatar
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    From what I've read incomplete combustion will tend to make the sensor read rich, remember after all that the sensor measures oxygen.

    The principle that the ignition system needs to be tip top before fiddling with the fuel system seems to stand the test of time.
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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uffee View Post
    From what I've read incomplete combustion will tend to make the sensor read rich, remember after all that the sensor measures oxygen.

    The principle that the ignition system needs to be tip top before fiddling with the fuel system seems to stand the test of time.
    I'm certain the ignition system is top notch.
    The plugs may need to be observed to check for heat range, and little details like that might need addressing in time, but for now, the car certainly behaves like it is all correct.
    Reading rich would be nice at this stage. It would confirm what my other sensor, my nose is telling me.

    Maybe the injector timing could be tidied up a little, but its close to within spec.
    By saturday arvo I'll know, the car is booked in to the exhaust shop in the morning, and new gaskets are in the mail.



    Jo

  17. #17
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    An exhaust leak is a possibility. Another possibility is that it's so rich that you're getting misfires. This lets raw fuel and unused air straight out the exhaust valve and will read lean on the gauge.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! Uffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    It would confirm what my other sensor, my nose is telling me.
    Perhaps a fuel leak somewhere then?
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Spend some time at the exhaust shop building yet another extractor set.
    Cheated and used the r21 manifold.

    Now the wide band o2 senser is working fine.

    The car is not surging so much at idle. I'm off now to do a full noise run and dry off some of the paint.


    Jo

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Geez, I'm liking this ecu.
    It was a bit of a pr!ck to calibrate the 5v output of the o2 sensor down to 1v, but its close now....close enough for a fuego and close enough for the ECU to use the auto tune function.


    Just did an auto tune of all load sites except a handfull at full noise.
    One thing I found is doing an on the street tune is rather antisocial.
    Driving along at red line at low load sucks, which is why I didn't finish the map. My head was shaking.



    Already the improvements over OE are evident at very low loads, and the stupid annoying miss it had at mid loads is gone too.
    I have tuned the rudness out of first gear stop start traffic and it is now possible to drive at low speed without relying on the clutch.

    I feel like I'm starting to win this battle.


    Jo

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Wow, sounds like you've really come a long way on this! I'm confused about the 1V part. Did the SMC require a linear 0-1V input for autotune?

    '92 205 Mi16
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  22. #22
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    Wow, sounds like you've really come a long way on this! I'm confused about the 1V part. Did the SMC require a linear 0-1V input for autotune?
    Correct.

    Jo

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Next obvious question. How did you turn 0-5V into 0-1V?

    '92 205 Mi16
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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    Next obvious question. How did you turn 0-5V into 0-1V?
    The lc1 has a page whereby you can set the output.
    Of course it is designed to not be easy, as the autronic asks for linear AFR 10-30 @1v and the graph on the lc-1 has a max of AFR 24 or something, NOT 30.

    It was then a matter of turning on both the o2sensor and ecu, getting both of them up on the screen to tweak the software of the lc1.

    I could not get it absolutely spot on like a proper dedicated (analogue I'm guessing) wideband device would, but I managed to get it so that the ECU reads within 0.1 AFR of what the o2 sensor is saying.
    This took a fair amount of tweaking in the Lc1 setup page, and when you go into that page, the o2 sensor locks up and holds, which gives you a snapshot...the gauge locks and the auronic o2 locks too which makes it easy to see the relationship.
    Then its a matter of working out the change required to move the curve on the lc1 software, performing it, re booting the o2 sensor by restarting the car...You need a good cranking battery, or in my case 2 because it takes a long time doing stop start engine work.

    What I eneded up doing to save time was to write stupid richness into the map so that the sensor pinned out on the rich side, then turned the motor over with the starter for the shortest time I could.
    Each false cranking added about 1 in the AFR so I was able to get about 4 visual snapshots per setting attempt.

    Murphy was there too. When you want to just bump the motor a few degrees with the starter, it bloody starts and when you want it to start, it sits there going na na na na na na for ever.



    Jo

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! deltone's Avatar
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    Very interesting read, i might go for the MTX-L,
    This will give me all i need to perfectly monitor my engine and also give vital info for some do it yourself tuning..
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