why not use wood
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Default why not use wood

    I'm in the process of finishing up a major service on my car, and decided that today would be a good day to finally tie the two floating chassis rail together with a butterfly brace. (for those who know the fuego, the entire section underneath the gearbox

    Unfortunatly I have $0 budget and have to use the products I have at hand, which would be alloy checker plate, galv steel sheet metal C beams, solid steel I beams, and.......form ply.


    I slapped myself when I thought of the form ply, telling myself you dont use timber on a car, and then I thought about it some more, and form ply seems aplicable for the perrfectly flat panel.... bloody strong, but not too strong in a major collision, easy to work with , flexable to a point, stiff to a point, abrasion proof to a point, basicly it fits the bill perfectly. Elastic on one angle and stiff as nails on another, and matching the forces I need to contain.
    I could even go and get some stronger thinner hardwood ply from brunziel.....

    I believe F1 cars have a wood plank under them, but I dont know of any other modern car that runs wood as a structural member.

    So, any reason why i should not tie the chassis together and use form ply timber as the product????

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    Morgans still use timber.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    I'm in the process of finishing up a major service on my car, and decided that today would be a good day to finally tie the two floating chassis rail together with a butterfly brace. (for those who know the fuego, the entire section underneath the gearbox

    Unfortunatly I have $0 budget and have to use the products I have at hand, which would be alloy checker plate, galv steel sheet metal C beams, solid steel I beams, and.......form ply.


    I slapped myself when I thought of the form ply, telling myself you dont use timber on a car, and then I thought about it some more, and form ply seems aplicable for the perrfectly flat panel.... bloody strong, but not too strong in a major collision, easy to work with , flexable to a point, stiff to a point, abrasion proof to a point, basicly it fits the bill perfectly. Elastic on one angle and stiff as nails on another, and matching the forces I need to contain.
    I could even go and get some stronger thinner hardwood ply from brunziel.....

    I believe F1 cars have a wood plank under them, but I dont know of any other modern car that runs wood as a structural member.

    So, any reason why i should not tie the chassis together and use form ply timber as the product????

    Jo
    The plank on F1 cars is for regulatory purposes.

    It is to ensure that they do not run the cars to low and the plank has to be a certain minimum height at the end of the race.

    That said, Plywood is basically a laminate.

    I'm not sure exactly what you had in mind - something like this perhaps?



    It should be ok as there have been entire Monocoque's built out of 3mm Plywood.

    Plywood should be quite stiff in a compressive plane - perhaps with a few right angle braces to prevent bowing? I assume you want to stop the chassis spreading/closing?

    Marcos built several different types of cars with a plywood monocoque and they were very successful in motor racing.

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    I reckon if you put a piece of C beam (depending on the size) at each end to give it flexing stiffness you should be fine.

    The Plywood will have good stiffness in the pushing and pulling planes and the c beam will stop it bowing.

    You could drill holes in the c beam to lighten up a bit if needed.

    How close is it running to the exhaust?

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    it's a floopygo with a weezy 4pot, how much flex do you reckon there would be ??

    if it were PRV powered then there is no way it would hold together
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo View Post
    it's a floopygo with a weezy 4pot, how much flex do you reckon there would be ??

    if it were PRV powered then there is no way it would hold together
    Cornering forces dear liza, something your Buick by Peugeot would know nothing about...

    The idea on a Fuego would be to prevent the lower chassis rails flexing and changing the suspension geometry under heavy cornering loads..

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno View Post
    The plank on F1 cars is for regulatory purposes.

    It is to ensure that they do not run the cars to low and the plank has to be a certain minimum height at the end of the race.

    That said, Plywood is basically a laminate.

    I'm not sure exactly what you had in mind - something like this perhaps?

    It should be ok as there have been entire Monocoque's built out of 3mm Plywood.

    Plywood should be quite stiff in a compressive plane - perhaps with a few right angle braces to prevent bowing? I assume you want to stop the chassis spreading/closing?

    Marcos built several different types of cars with a plywood monocoque and they were very successful in motor racing.
    Wow, I never would have thought.....


    Yes nice brace that is effectively what I was aiming to do, but just with a slab rather than the butterfly cutouts.

    Of course a posh one like that would be nice, but no budget rules that out.

    As a tester, I grabbed the removable brace of the R25, re drilled the holes and bolted it up.
    Its not pretty but I should get some idea if there is a difference to be felt.
    It sits just behind the drive shaft hole.

    Jo

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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Wow, I never would have thought.....


    Yes nice brace that is effectively what I was aiming to do, but just with a slab rather than the butterfly cutouts.

    Of course a posh one like that would be nice, but no budget rules that out.

    As a tester, I grabbed the removable brace of the R25, re drilled the holes and bolted it up.
    Its not pretty but I should get some idea if there is a difference to be felt.
    It sits just behind the drive shaft hole.

    Jo
    I wouldn't imagine there would be a perceivable difference in feel (you never know though), but it might add a bit of long term durability to the chassis as the cornering forces produced by a set of modern HP tyres are substantially more than the original 175 section tyres the car was designed for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno View Post
    Cornering forces dear liza, something your Buick by Peugeot would know nothing about...

    The idea on a Fuego would be to prevent the lower chassis rails flexing and changing the suspension geometry under heavy cornering loads..
    cornering forces the floppy's off the road doesn't it
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    I'd be worried about it getting impregnated with oils .... so incredibly flamable at some point in the future

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    Jo

    How are you going to mount it? Any fastners thru the ply would likely elongate the holes during flexing and nullify the bracing effect.

    Screwing and gluing? Given your well-documented affection for Sikafix you could bond some metal on to the board in some strategic places and get some serious stifness.

    I would think avioding oil impregnation is a matter of choosing the right paint/sealer.

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    Composites
    Modern F1 chassis are lighter and stronger than ever thanks to composite materials. One of the first major uses of a composite material in F1 was in 1966 when Bruce McLaren’s McLaren featured a chassis made of ‘Mallite’. This consisted of a layer of balsa wood sandwiched by two layers of aluminium and made for an incredibly light and stiff material. This concept is still used today except that the balsa wood has been substituted for aluminium honeycomb and the aluminium skin is today made of carbon fibre.
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    G'day Jo,

    your form ply is good stuff particularly if you can fix it without putting holes in it. You only have to really worry about moisture getting into it at the exposed edges - give it buggery with a good sealer around the edges and you're home and hosed as it were. If you are really fussy, stick it down with epoxy and paint the whole lot with a good layer of same.

    Plywood is good gear, they made fighter/bomber aircraft out of it during WWII, and very successful !

    Fix the exhaust up with a heat shield if you reckon that it's a bit close.

    cheers,
    Bob

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    wielder of the sword Australdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo View Post
    cornering forces the floppy's off the road doesn't it
    Speaking from experience are you?

    I've done some serious corners on the tad side of "too hot" and never lost it once....perhaps some pug drivers don't have the same level of skills though
    Aus
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    The bottom is the area that runs out of oxygen first, it is where the most oxygen is used........"



    '84 fuego GTX
    '87 fuego GTX
    '85 fuego GTX
    ....beginning to look a bit frightning isn't it.

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    pretty sure they made a mini powered plywood car ,

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob View Post
    G'day Jo,

    your form ply is good stuff particularly if you can fix it without putting holes in it.
    Bob
    Why is that, rot and water ingress??

    I was imagining the wood would be clamped down with some sort of metal band on the wood side, but it would be the friction against the rail that actually holds it in place. In other words there would be no movenemt of nut shafts in the plywood bore, just a very strong clamping force.


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    Quote Originally Posted by pugwash View Post
    pretty sure they made a mini powered plywood car ,
    G'day
    I had a 1948 2 1/2 Riley that had a wood frame. Used to move around a bit.
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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Australdi View Post
    Speaking from experience are you?

    I've done some serious corners on the tad side of "too hot" and never lost it once....perhaps some pug drivers don't have the same level of skills though
    hmmmmmmmmmm, i seem to recall a pic of yours with floppy in a ditch at the side of the road

    pug drivers are far too hot to fall off the road
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    wielder of the sword Australdi's Avatar
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    mine was in a ditch on a straight bit of track because the earth collapsed from underneath the left wheels.....no cornering involved whatsoever

    If you want to avoid answering...you have to think up a better example than that.
    Aus
    ".....the good health of a pond is held in a delicate balance. A pond's condition
    deteriorates when the bottom environment cannot support animal life.
    The bottom is the area that runs out of oxygen first, it is where the most oxygen is used........"



    '84 fuego GTX
    '87 fuego GTX
    '85 fuego GTX
    ....beginning to look a bit frightning isn't it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Australdi View Post
    mine was in a ditch on a straight bit of track because the earth collapsed from underneath the left wheels.....no cornering involved whatsoever

    If you want to avoid answering...you have to think up a better example than that.
    di, you know what kind of a response that is going to elicit!

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Australdi View Post
    mine was in a ditch on a straight bit of track because the earth collapsed from underneath the left wheels.....no cornering involved whatsoever
    bloody hell they can't even head in a straight line without flopping off the road

    best be using some wood to put training wheels on then Nige and make up a set for Di while your at it
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  23. #23
    wielder of the sword Australdi's Avatar
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    hmmmm seems reading and comprehension are a challenge for some too





    sometimes I wear Prada
    Aus
    ".....the good health of a pond is held in a delicate balance. A pond's condition
    deteriorates when the bottom environment cannot support animal life.
    The bottom is the area that runs out of oxygen first, it is where the most oxygen is used........"



    '84 fuego GTX
    '87 fuego GTX
    '85 fuego GTX
    ....beginning to look a bit frightning isn't it.

  24. #24
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    G'day,

    moderators at 10 paces
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  25. #25
    bob
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    G'day Jo,

    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Why is that, rot and water ingress??......
    spot on, you don't want any way for moisture etc to get to the edges where it can wick in. If there are no holes it's less edges to worry about, if holes are unavoidable treat them before the bolts go in and use big fat washers against the timber to give it more bearing area so it doesn't squash and allow movement.

    Might pay to protect the exposed edges between the rails with something solid, extruded aluminium channel or GI cover strip, stuck on with the sealer maybe ?

    cheers,
    Bob

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