504 ti motor running rich
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  1. #1
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    Default 504 ti motor running rich

    any ideas on a 504 ti engine running rich ( blowing black smoke and sooting plugs)

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Clark View Post
    any ideas on a 504 ti engine running rich ( blowing black smoke and sooting plugs)
    I would start by checking the diaphragm on the top of the injection pump. These tend to split.

    Normally TI engines stay in a good state of tune , unless someone has been trying to adjust the pump without using the correct procedure

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    Default Tuning ti pump

    Do you have procedures for setting pump

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    Quote Originally Posted by D Clark View Post
    Do you have procedures for setting pump
    Check the diaphragm first, take the top metal dome off.
    Setting procedure only involves the idle mixture.
    It is highly unlikely that is set wrong.
    When the diaphragm splits there is no vacuum and the pump thinks the throttle is wide open and richens the mixture to suit.
    Graham

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Clark View Post
    Do you have procedures for setting pump
    The pump won't come out of adjustment randomly

    I suggest you check the diaphragm for splits first.

    The Haynes manual covers adjustment of KF5 Injection or you may be able to download a manual from here: http://www.504.org/

    The other (less likely) possibility is a leaking cold start injector, the solenoid valve of the very back of the "log".

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! ipb205's Avatar
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    Ive got a spare 'large' diaphram if anyone needs it. Bought from P504 last year but never used.

    Ian.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
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    Default Ti Ti Ti

    Quote Originally Posted by D Clark View Post
    Do you have procedures for setting pump

    Sounds like the diaphragm to me.

    If you pull the top of the pump off, be careful as you go, don't force anything, mark the position of everything and count the number off turns on all parts (Photograph after each step).
    Be careful if you rotate the large spring after fitting the new diaphragm you can rip it apart if the swivel attached to it does not rotate.
    Put everything back in the same position (align all your match markings as they were before you started and providing the Ti went well before it should again.

    You will find that there are 2 rubber diaphragms (a smaller one as well) probably should replace this one too.
    Don't forget the volume between the two diaphragms form a sealed off section. Make sure that the diaphragms seal at all joints and areas of attachment.


    Like others have said Tis don't just go out of tune by themselves.

    Good Luck
    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
    Peugeot 95' 605 Sv
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    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


  8. #8
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ipb205 View Post
    Ive got a spare 'large' diaphram if anyone needs it. Bought from P504 last year but never used.

    Ian.
    PM sent re diaphram...
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



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    Anyone have photos of the top of the pump apart?? Would be interested as it looks like we have one with this problem too
    Lets just say we have a few pugs about!

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    Fellow Frogger! ipb205's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hipcrostino View Post
    Anyone have photos of the top of the pump apart?? Would be interested as it looks like we have one with this problem too
    Yes - Ive got a pdf document of a full rebuild however its in French. Lots of pictures though.
    House in bits nere and computer is away so I will need to search web again to find it.
    Will do so tonight and post it if I can find it.

    Ian.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ipb205 View Post
    Yes - Ive got a pdf document of a full rebuild however its in French. Lots of pictures though.
    House in bits nere and computer is away so I will need to search web again to find it.
    Will do so tonight and post it if I can find it.

    Ian.
    I would grateful if you could post the link - or upload the file to here http://depositfiles.com/en/
    and then post the index.

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! ipb205's Avatar
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    Default Pump rebuild pdf.

    Here is the source...
    http://amicale.504.discuforum.info/t...-injection.htm

    The pdf file is 2MB so I cant upload it to AF. Perhaps robmac can upload to his file site.?

    Email me if you want a copy sent to your inbox - ib@netspeed.com.au

    Ian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ipb205 View Post
    Here is the source...
    http://amicale.504.discuforum.info/t...-injection.htm

    The pdf file is 2MB so I cant upload it to AF. Perhaps robmac can upload to his file site.?

    Email me if you want a copy sent to your inbox - ib@netspeed.com.au

    Ian.
    Everyone can download it here:

    http://depositfiles.com/files/lqvnzrr0x


    We now need someone to translate it - the assembled document is too big for google translator...

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! ipb205's Avatar
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    Default Sedis chain?

    Thanks Rob for the upload. Hope its useful.

    While we are talking Ti bits, does anyone have a source for Sedis chains?
    I believe they are plastic and can break randomly and that they are long out of production.

    cheers,
    Ian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ipb205 View Post
    Thanks Rob for the upload. Hope its useful.

    While we are talking Ti bits, does anyone have a source for Sedis chains?
    I believe they are plastic and can break randomly and that they are long out of production.

    cheers,
    Ian.
    Actually they are toothed belt. Try EAI.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! ipb205's Avatar
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    Tried EAI today, not a chance. They are getting very rare now I believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Everyone can download it here:

    http://depositfiles.com/files/lqvnzrr0x


    We now need someone to translate it - the assembled document is too big for google translator...
    i'll have a bit of a play with it


    Author: Alexis BOARD, Convertible B12 1978. Report: my car smoked blue, enormously…. An engine oil consumption except limit… (more than 2 liters for 100 kms), appeared of only one blow. New parts necessary: • The small pocket of joints BOSCH (photo below, reference 8.492.928 001 - 000) • The joint of timing-gear case (Series 04). • A new belt SEDIS I then thought of bringing ahead a problem to the level of my injection pump, and I thus engaged a disassembling of my pump. It proves that all the stages below were not finally necessary, insofar as only limps it with pistons of the injection pump posed problem. However, I recall you below, in a friendly way, all the stages of my intervention, with comments and councils. In all, I devoted one week of my time to this work (I count the time of reflexion!), and, in spite of my passion for mechanics, it was a little long… Merci for the knack of dad who assisted me and advised half of time!!! Thus certain operations are to be made to 2! But what a satisfaction when this evening, the car does not smoke any more!!! My report will comprise photographs, snuff during the phase of reassembly, in measurement where the parts are cleaner, and that I will have correctly apprehended the operation of all this artillery! 1. Deposit injection pump 1.1. Deposit peripheral elements • To deposit the cap • To deposit the air filter • To deposit the battery • To drain the water of the engine (air cock on the level it radiator) and To deposit the radiator • To deposit the propeller of the ventilator (3 nuts, key of 10)




    1.2. Deposit pulley of crankshaft and timing-gear case • It is necessary to be provided with a casing of 35…. Not so easy! • The engine should be blocked. How to make! Me, I blocked the driving wheel using a screwdriver while having dismounted sheet of protection on which the magnetic sensor of the account turn is fixed. I moreover blocked in rotation the pulley of the crankshaft using a chain wrench. Normally, that comes. • To deposit the pulley of crankshaft. • To remove the timing-gear case and découvrer the chain of distribution and belt SEDIS 1.3. Deposit injection pump • To deposit each pipe of injector, to locate them. • It is necessary “to fix” the pulleys and belt SEDIS. For that, to make turn the crankshaft (while giving the nut of 35 temporarily) clockwise to obtain the following configuration, by making if need be several turns. (PS, here the belt is new because the photograph is taken with the reassembly!!). Finger of the lighter forwards engine. It is necessary here to manufacture a tool for on the one hand blocking the rotation of the pulley of injection pump and on the other hand to extract the pinion with conical hafting thereafter. • To deposit belt SEDIS • To deposit the whole of the hose connections connected to injection pump, by taking care to locate them or take photographs.



    • So below the location of different conduits by plays of color! • To remove the support of the pump of injection and, after removing the joint of timing-gear case, the two screws which hold the injection pump. 2. Repair of the injection pump 2.1. Dissociation of the various elements I dismounted: • The thermostatic element • The membrane bell • Limps with pistons • The pump housing. After summary disassembling and checking into blowing, the membrane bell is not called into question. The unit seeming in very good state, I decided not to change the membranes and to preserve the new ones for another time. In fact, at this stage, I note that my gasoline is full of oil and that my gasoline tank contains full of oil (my gasoline is maroon dark). I thus think that it is well by this pipe of lubrication of limps with pistons which makes it possible the engine oil to lubricate the pistons, that the engine oil finds mixed with the gasoline and turns over to the tank by the return circuit



    Caution: it is well the engine oil under pressure which lubricates the pistons of the injection pump. The remainder of the elements of pump is lubricated by the oil of pump (famous 10 W untraceable which I replaced for the moment by engine oil 10W40). To observe here the color of my gasoline during the draining of the tank!! 2.2. Disassembling, cleaning of the piston box I thus dismounted my limps with pistons ..... Here this lower part various elements to be dismounted (X 4): The O ring on the level of the valves of arrival, as well as the joint metal on the level of the valves of repression are simple to change. For the shirts + Pistons, that Corsican. A very great care is needed! To locate the pistons well + shirts which are appairés. Below a photograph of my bench:

    The pistons + springs are extracted and placed in a box, without contact with the fingers. To extract the shirts and the famous joints, I used a key found in… the toolbox of the large father. It was a little “small” in diameter but made it possible to extract the shirts: Here one burst below of the assembly, with the two joints with problem…. I changed all the joints of the piston box to obtain the reassembly opposite



    2.3. The thermostatic element A small disassembling for cleaning and reassembly: I on the other hand did not touch with the pump housing and with membrane bell. I just changed the lip seal of the AAC of the pump. For the reassembly of the whole of pump, it is necessary to proceed as follows: • Membrane bell (1) • Thermostatic element (2) • Piston box (3 so against) All the paper gaskets and toric accessible are changed. 3. Put back injection pump 3.1. Neat preparation To prepare the mating plane, to put joint compound at it. I have repaints the timing-gear case…


    The reassembly of the injection pump, new belt SEDIS and closing timing-gear case (joined new cork with joint compound). • To reassemble the pulley of crankshaft, belts, it radiator, the filter air. • Not to forget to change them gasoline filters (all)! And here is, the car does not smoke any more! Incredible! 4. Conclusion If your car had suddenly smoked blue, in an intense way, do not accuse the engine directly, to check your gasoline: if it contains oil, these are the famous O rings which flee ..... They should be changed in the piston box of the injection pump. Certain stations BOSCH can do it, Philippe DARQUET also, but you can launch out. with patience, discipline, one there arrive (only concern of finding the famous key to take apart the shirts). Thank you with all, to FRIENDLY the 504 and its Forum for your councils and your supports!


    now i have spaced them out as per each page so you will have to play with pics if need be or if someone wants to create a PDF from this with pics and attach it go for it
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

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    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

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  18. #18
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    I found a document we got some time ago about tuning and replacing the pump. I've pdf'd it but need to upload it somewhere so you can get to it (23megs..). Its also a bit faded. Anyway using it looks like I've solved the issue on the Ti i've been playing with. Fingers crossed.
    Lets just say we have a few pugs about!

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hipcrostino View Post
    I found a document we got some time ago about tuning and replacing the pump. I've pdf'd it but need to upload it somewhere so you can get to it (23megs..). Its also a bit faded. Anyway using it looks like I've solved the issue on the Ti i've been playing with. Fingers crossed.
    http://depositfiles.com/en/

    You can upload it here for free. Then be sure to copy to the link address and post it here.

  20. #20
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    Ive been looking on the French and German forums over the last few nights and can find little reference to Sedis belts for the Ti and where to get a spare;

    On amicale504 the following has been posted last year;

    "l'Aventure Peugeot : 30/35 € TTC pièce (avec une commande minimum de 1.000 pièces Exclamation me semble-t-il)
    Je ne connais pas le détail des démarches entreprises, qui n'ont malheureusement pas abouties"

    It appears to be referencing that LAdventure Peugeot would source or procure new belts but an order of 1000 minimum would be required.
    Refer to http://amicale.504.discuforum.info/t...roie-Sedis.htm for more info if your French is good.

    The German 504cc.de forum had little more to say other than they really are only found on ebay now and then and can command 300 Euro or more.

    It may come to be that L'Adventure will need to place an order soon to satisfy demand as the belts wear out and snap.

    Ian.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ipb205 View Post
    Ive been looking on the French and German forums over the last few nights and can find little reference to Sedis belts for the Ti and where to get a spare;

    On amicale504 the following has been posted last year;

    "l'Aventure Peugeot : 30/35 € TTC pièce (avec une commande minimum de 1.000 pièces Exclamation me semble-t-il)
    Je ne connais pas le détail des démarches entreprises, qui n'ont malheureusement pas abouties"

    It appears to be referencing that LAdventure Peugeot would source or procure new belts but an order of 1000 minimum would be required.
    Refer to http://amicale.504.discuforum.info/t...roie-Sedis.htm for more info if your French is good.

    The German 504cc.de forum had little more to say other than they really are only found on ebay now and then and can command 300 Euro or more.

    It may come to be that L'Adventure will need to place an order soon to satisfy demand as the belts wear out and snap.

    Ian.
    Similar situation for worm drive diff seals!
    Graham

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
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    Default Ti SEDIS belt

    Quote Originally Posted by ipb205 View Post
    Ive been looking on the French and German forums over the last few nights and can find little reference to Sedis belts for the Ti and where to get a spare;

    On amicale 504 the following has been posted last year;

    "l'Aventure Peugeot : 30/35 € TTC pièce (avec une commande minimum de 1.000 pièces Exclamation me semble-t-il)
    Je ne connais pas le détail des démarches entreprises, qui n'ont malheureusement pas abouties"

    It appears to be referencing that L'aventure Peugeot would source or procure new belts but an order of 1000 minimum would be required.
    Refer to http://amicale.504.discuforum.info/t...roie-Sedis.htm for more info if your French is good.

    The German 504cc.de forum had little more to say other than they really are only found on ebay now and then and can command 300 Euro or more.

    It may come to be that L'Aventure will need to place an order soon to satisfy demand as the belts wear out and snap.

    Ian.
    I once changed one, I don't know why, the original was a fraction shorter and looked of better quality that the new one.

    I also doubt that one would break, they are constructed from a "nylon plastic" type, material with 5 or 6 bowden type brass cables internally bonded.

    Try contacting Peugeot Australia, they mentioned not long ago that there was some sort of set up for tracing spares for older models.

    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
    Peugeot 95' 605 Sv
    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


  23. #23
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    just tryied to upload that file, only to accidently close the upload windows 15mins in! takes about 20mins with my excuse for a connection. Might do it from work instead on monday.
    Lets just say we have a few pugs about!

  24. #24
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    OK, finally uploaded it. Hope it helps.

    http://depositfiles.com/files/72a1igq7j
    Lets just say we have a few pugs about!

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