Generic after market ECU instal questions
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Default Generic after market ECU instal questions

    Hello all.
    I'm setting up my fuego with an after market ecu and have a few specific questions I figured those who have walked this road may be able to help me with.

    1. O2 sensor location.

    The kit runs a 4 wire o2 sensor, the exhaust is 4-2-1 and its not running a cat and there is enough cable to run the sensor as far back as the centre of the car.
    Where is best location for the o2 sensor??

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    2.Carbon canister.
    At the moment with the sort of OE ECU, the carbon canister is connected to a solenoid triggered by the ecu.
    under what conditions would the ECU open the can??

    I have one spare aux out on the ECU, and i wanted to use it for the radiator coolant fans, so without really knowing how the carbon canister works, would like to divorce it from the operation of the ecu.
    Any suggestions of how I can achieve this???

    Jo

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    1. In the main pipe, so it's sampling mixtures from all the cylinders, but close as possible to the engine and before the cat, if it has one.

    2. The carbon canister should be opened when the car starts, otherwise there will be a vacuum in the fuel tank. In the old days, fuel tanks were vented to atmosphere. So any general purpose output can be used to earth the relay which opens the canister.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    con
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post

    1. O2 sensor location.

    The kit runs a 4 wire o2 sensor, the exhaust is 4-2-1 and its not running a cat and there is enough cable to run the sensor as far back as the centre of the car.
    Where is best location for the o2 sensor??


    Jo


    Jo,

    This is well described here - http://wbo2.com/lsu/position.htm



    con....

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    Icon9 What sort of ECU?

    What sort of ECU are you installing? I really hope it isn't a Microtec, I have recently had a very bad experience with their sales agent in Melbourne, and have cut the ECU out and replaced it with a Haltech. Rather an expensive learning experience, and now arguing about a refund!

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by racing405 View Post
    What sort of ECU are you installing? I really hope it isn't a Microtec, I have recently had a very bad experience with their sales agent in Melbourne, and have cut the ECU out and replaced it with a Haltech. Rather an expensive learning experience, and now arguing about a refund!
    Nope, not a microtec.
    Its an old autronic.

    Jo

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    There's no such thing as an old Autronic. They're superbly engineered Aussie made master pieces. Which model and version no.? You do realise they're full sequential?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Its a SMC, and glad to hear the brand comes highly recommended.
    I'm sure it will do a good job, and fingers crossed the base map is a well tuned one.

    Jo

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    That's the same as what I run on my 205, v1.92. Just don't forget it needs a home (or reference) trigger, in a addition to a crank trigger. I've got some good software tools for working out the timing windows if you need them.

    How are you firing the ignition? Normally the SMC doesn't have any dwell control. So you have to use either an intelligent type ignition module (Bosch 008 or equivalent) or some type of CDI (MSD, M&W, etc.).
    Last edited by PeterT; 20th March 2011 at 09:10 AM.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    That's the same as what I run on my 205, v1.92. Just don't forget it needs a home (or reference) trigger, in a addition to a crank trigger. I've got some good software tools for working out the timing windows if you need them.

    How are you firing the ignition? Normally the SMC doesn't have any dwell control. So you have to use either an intelligent type ignition module (Bosch 008 or equivalent) or some type of CDI (MSD, M&W, etc.).
    Peter, you dont know how good it feels to hear you praise the device.
    I was more expecting to find out the reasons i should not have bought the unit and am chuffed it comes with such a recommendation and that you actually know the brand and model.

    Excuse me if I dont yet understand exactly how it all works and what I actually bought, as I've only read the manual 14 times (200 times to go) and I reckon by this time time next week, I'll be alot more clear on everything.
    I bought the entire system loom sensors and everything off a guy who had it on his fuego, unlikely as that may sound.
    I know its the easy peasy way of doing an after market ECU installand at this stage I'm not 100% sure what does what, but the unit came out of a fuego and I just carefully removed it. I can see it has hall effect(?) modified dizzy and thats about it for timing reference.The flywheel is quite light s a result of the removal of its timing.
    There are bosh type plugs going into twin modules that connect to 4 coils, giving it twin wasted spark, 1-4 and 2-3 seem ganged together.
    The guy who sold it to me thought it as bundled with the auto tune option too, but I dont have a cable to plug it into my old PC or I'd find out by firing the whole unit up on my garage floor.
    That actually leads me to a question you may know the answer to. Where do i procure a cable to plug it into a PC?? Does it plug out of that mini jack at the ecu side of the loom???


    So Peter, You have made my day with your thumbs up reveiw of the Autronic SMC.
    I have a great deal of respect for your opinion, and if you think its good enough for you car, I'm certain I wont be dissapointed with its function in my car.



    Jo

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    The fact that it came off the same car makes it easy. I was imagining you having to engineer everything from scratch. Hopefully that also means the file in the ECU will be programmed accordingly to the hardware supplied and you'll just need to turn the key. You have to keep in mind that they are built for the race car market, where the level of expertise is considerably higher, and thus the manual is written at a higher level.

    Autotune will never work unless you have an Autronic gas analyser ($2000+). Just load the Manual tune software on your laptop/PC. For later models there are both DOS and Windows software available. When I'm at the track I use an old DOS laptop, just because it loads instantly. Windows version is easier to use.

    If you're handy with a soldering iron you can make the cable yourself. It's just 3.5mm mini to 9 pin serial. Jaycar has all the parts. I can look up the pin outs if you don't have them.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    The fact that it came off the same car makes it easy. I was imagining you having to engineer everything from scratch. Hopefully that also means the file in the ECU will be programmed accordingly to the hardware supplied and you'll just need to turn the key. You have to keep in mind that they are built for the race car market, where the level of expertise is considerably higher, and thus the manual is written at a higher level.

    Autotune will never work unless you have an Autronic gas analyser ($2000+). Just load the Manual tune software on your laptop/PC. For later models there are both DOS and Windows software available. When I'm at the track I use an old DOS laptop, just because it loads instantly. Windows version is easier to use.

    If you're handy with a soldering iron you can make the cable yourself. It's just 3.5mm mini to 9 pin serial. Jaycar has all the parts. I can look up the pin outs if you don't have them.
    Thank you Peter, the pin diagram would be handy.
    Making the lead is within my skill set.

    I've got a trunk full of old computer plugs and doodahs from the 1990's and I'm prety sure i have the plugs already.
    If I can just strip an existing serial plug lead and wire a mini jack on the end, I'l take that option.


    I'll have to get the old shed PC that has virtually locked up with disease and obesity fixed and sorted by a computer dude to become the car computer.

    All these little things, along with the big things like getting the exhaust and fuel tank baffling sorted willl take a fair amount of stuffing around, which is what i like about this sort of project.
    In time, I'll ask for your recommendations of a dyno tuner to check its tune.

    Jo

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    I'll have to get the old shed PC that has virtually locked up with disease and obesity fixed and sorted by a computer dude to become the car computer.
    Easiest solution is to find a Win98 boot disk, completely erase the hard drive, format, add system with CD support and make it boot in DOS mode.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    Easiest solution is to find a Win98 boot disk, completely erase the hard drive, format, add system with CD support and make it boot in DOS mode.
    Just had a look at the IBM shed computer and there is no 9 pin inputs, so I guess I need to find an old PC with the 9 pin serial input and then have it set up like you describe.

    Jo

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    25 pin is also fine.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    25 pin is also fine.

    This is the back of the computer.
    Is this the right 25 pin connecter??
    IF you can find the wireing specs for me, I'd apreciate it so i can get to it to make up a connecter for this block, assuming it is the one.

    Jo
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Generic after market ECU instal questions-plug-pc.jpg  
    Last edited by jo proffi; 21st March 2011 at 10:10 PM.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    yes, that's DB25 pin serial. Attached are some schematics that will help.

    3.5mm stereo plug - DB25 male plug
    TIP (pin 33 Txd) - pin 3
    MIDDLE (pin 9 Rxd) - pin 2
    BASE (pin 34 serial GND) - pin 7

    Email me the "*.CAL" file when you save it to your PC.
    Attached Files Attached Files

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    yes, that's DB25 pin serial. Attached are some schematics that will help.

    3.5mm stereo plug - DB25 male plug
    TIP (pin 33 Txd) - pin 3
    MIDDLE (pin 9 Rxd) - pin 2
    BASE (pin 34 serial GND) - pin 7

    Email me the "*.CAL" file when you save it to your PC.
    Ah its a good day.
    Too much water has passed under the bridge for me to immediately recognise that plug format.
    I know it as a scsi cable and being the serial womble i am, have a box full of them left over from my recording studio days.
    Its assume its simply a matter of stripping one end and following the supplied wiring map (thanks for that).

    I'm not familiar with the "*.CAL" file but I guess in time it will be obvious to me what you mean.

    Thanks again for helping me through this initial install.
    I think the PC interface and the old PC itself will be the biggest of my hurdles.
    Jo

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    10 min later....

    The ecu has the mini jack already connected.

    Do you know which pins on the 25 pin serial block these 3 get bussed to???
    Maybe the info is staring me in the face, but i cant see it.
    Jo

    PS,I think I just found the info I needed.

    http://www.aim-sportline.com/downloa...91_100_eng.pdf


    Jo
    Last edited by jo proffi; 21st March 2011 at 01:43 PM.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Yes, old SCSI also used a 25 pin plug.

    The *.CAL is the name of the file. eg fuego.cal, or what ever you save it as.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    I must be slowing down - I just noticed this thread.

    As Peter says, Jo, you have got yourself a nice bit of gear. Most of the V8 Supercars used to run these. Don't know if they still do. I have one in a box somewhere, off the old 205 race car, and it may get used again, on a 205, real soon now, the way things are going. I used to use an old NEC DOS laptop to talk to it - I still have that laptop, and that is its only purpose in life.

    Peter will know best who to do the dynotune, but I used to use a mob called SSS, on Silverwater Road, who were Autronics agents.

    Good luck with it.

    Tim

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    Hi Jo,
    I can also recommend SSS they did the final tune on the Mallock 32B with Nissan SR20 & hairdryer,the only problem is access if using a trailer,they are just off Silverwater Road at a set of lights.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    yes, that's DB25 pin serial. Attached are some schematics that will help.

    3.5mm stereo plug - DB25 male plug
    TIP (pin 33 Txd) - pin 3
    MIDDLE (pin 9 Rxd) - pin 2
    BASE (pin 34 serial GND) - pin 7

    Email me the "*.CAL" file when you save it to your PC.
    Ah derr, the info was staring me in the face.
    Ok, pins 2,3 and 7.

    What happens to the other 22 pins??
    Do they just remain unterminated???

    Jo

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Ah derr, the info was staring me in the face.
    Ok, pins 2,3 and 7.

    What happens to the other 22 pins??
    Do they just remain unterminated???

    Jo
    Jo,

    D25 was the old standard for serial ports of PCs. If you are building a special lead, I believe any PC you are likely to find, which is less than 15 years old, will have D9 male serial port.

    I would be fitting a D9 female socket instead of the D25

    I have attached the pin outs for both, so just "copy" the pin outs you have for the D25 to the D9.

    Serial ports were extensively used for PSTN modems in the old days, hence RI and DTR and other stuff but for basic operation only three pins are needed.

    cheers


    Robert
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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Don't forget pins 2 and 3 are reversed between DB9 and DB25, should you decide to go that way.

    And yes, just three pins.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Jo,

    D25 was the old standard for serial ports of PCs. If you are building a special lead, I believe any PC you are likely to find, which is less than 15 years old, will have D9 male serial port.

    I would be fitting a D9 female socket instead of the D25

    I have attached the pin outs for both, so just "copy" the pin outs you have for the D25 to the D9.

    Serial ports were extensively used for PSTN modems in the old days, hence RI and DTR and other stuff but for basic operation only three pins are needed.

    cheers


    Robert
    Why change it you can still buy db25 connectors?
    One thing you can't buy anymore though is made up serial cables. Need to buy connectors and wire them up yourself. I've just ordered a Megasquirt 3, looking forward to using USB connection.
    Graham

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