505 SR20DET tailshaft teeth stripped!
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  1. #1
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    Default 505 SR20DET tailshaft teeth stripped!

    Stopped at a light the other day in the 505 with SR20DET and I put it in gear and there is a loud grinding noise and no forward progress. Thought it was the Nissan gearbox which has been becoming progressively noisier over time finally giving up the ghost.

    I had it towed into a Jap import workshop that had a SH box and was willing to install it for a reasonable amount. He rang me later to tell me the solid tailshaft inside the torque tube was totally stripped bare of teeth where it mates with the gearbox output shaft! He said he had never seen this happen before. This is the tailshaft that I had the 505 stub sawn off and a Nissan stub welded on by a tailshaft workshop so that I could mate the 505 diff with the SR20 gearbox.

    It surprised me too especially since the other end of the shaft which is all std Puegeot was still OK.

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    The only thing I can think of which might cause this would be a misalignment of the tailshaft with the output shaft of the gearbox. When I had the 505 flange welded onto the Nissan box so that I could bolt up the 505's torque tube to it I did not think it necessary to have the surface of the flange trued afterwards, to make sure it was absolutely parallel so I am having this done now while I wait for the new tailshaft to be welded up. Anyone have any other ideas for what could have caused this? A faulty Nissan stub seems possible but unlikely and the tailshaft place assures me the welding process does not weaken the stub.

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! dieselman's Avatar
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    Make sure you use a good quality moly grease on the splines. One with at least 50% molybdenum disulphide in it.
    Honda motorcycles sell some with 60% in it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nisspug View Post
    Stopped at a light the other day in the 505 with SR20DET and I put it in gear and there is a loud grinding noise and no forward progress. Thought it was the Nissan gearbox which has been becoming progressively noisier over time finally giving up the ghost.

    I had it towed into a Jap import workshop that had a SH box and was willing to install it for a reasonable amount. He rang me later to tell me the solid tailshaft inside the torque tube was totally stripped bare of teeth where it mates with the gearbox output shaft! He said he had never seen this happen before. This is the tailshaft that I had the 505 stub sawn off and a Nissan stub welded on by a tailshaft workshop so that I could mate the 505 diff with the SR20 gearbox.

    It surprised me too especially since the other end of the shaft which is all std Puegeot was still OK.

    The only thing I can think of which might cause this would be a misalignment of the tailshaft with the output shaft of the gearbox. When I had the 505 flange welded onto the Nissan box so that I could bolt up the 505's torque tube to it I did not think it necessary to have the surface of the flange trued afterwards, to make sure it was absolutely parallel so I am having this done now while I wait for the new tailshaft to be welded up. Anyone have any other ideas for what could have caused this? A faulty Nissan stub seems possible but unlikely and the tailshaft place assures me the welding process does not weaken the stub.
    Email Thanos, his now deleted thread, discussed this very problem and the solutions.

    The flange on the torque tube is probably flexing which makes the prop shaft splines run out of alignment to the gearbox or diff. It was a problem Thanos identified even with modified XN engines.

    I can see it could much worse with a higher powered V6 engine and a shortened torque tube.

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    Fellow Frogger! James S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nisspug View Post
    The only thing I can think of which might cause this would be a misalignment of the tailshaft with the output shaft of the gearbox. When I had the 505 flange welded onto the Nissan box so that I could bolt up the 505's torque tube to it I did not think it necessary to have the surface of the flange trued afterwards, to make sure it was absolutely parallel so I am having this done now while I wait for the new tailshaft to be welded up. Anyone have any other ideas for what could have caused this? A faulty Nissan stub seems possible but unlikely and the tailshaft place assures me the welding process does not weaken the stub.
    Apart from what Robmac has said about flexing of the flange, I have experienced this issue in a Lancia Beta where the splined driveshaft was misalinged with the output shaft from the diff (front wheel drive). I created the misalingment by fitting an 1800 engine to a 2000 gearbox but kept using the 2000 driveshaft mounts. The misalingment was barely noticeable during fitting but the result was stripped splines - twice. It took weeks for the failure to occur. The splines looked worn down more than chopped off. Good move getting it trued up before refitting.

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    OK I will email Thanos. Sounds like misalignment is the culprit. The grease may help some too. Thanks.

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    I am not familiar with this mode of (gearbox-propeller shaft) failure, but my guess is that there is an alignment problem somewhere. There are two common modes of failure, both where the driveshaft connects to the differential: The splines shear or the drive shaft breaks right before the point where the splines start. The works coupe driveshaft sheared twice and the Berline broke once and sheared once. After replacing the driveshaft twice we wised up and looked at the torque tube carefully to see if it was bent (it was not) but we discovered that the bottom half of the tube had separated from the plate which bolts to the diff and was probably flexing on power application and forming an angle between the diff and the driveshaft and causing failures. Seeing that the plate still separated from the tube in spite of that we welded two 3mm steel wedges to reinforce that. Perhaps you can use the same approach for the front end of the torque tube.

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    well this is an excellent time for this thread to turn up. Tomorrow I'm splitting the Nissan gear box in two (rear housing off) in prep to take it for modification on the weekend.

    Somthing I'm interested to know Nisspug, what end of the tube is the center baring now at? Normally the baring is in the middle, but when its shortend it will be towards one end. I'm wondering if having this closer or further away from the gearbox is the best option. What do you guys think?

    Also saw a 203 with a buggered spline on the weekend too. The conclusion in that case was a lack of lubrication cause it.
    Lets just say we have a few pugs about!

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    Thanks Thanos. It is the gearbox end that is the problem in mine but I will check for cracks etc in the torque tube.

    Hipcrostino: I took the extra length off the gearbox end so I guess the bearing is closer to the gearbox now (and no less close to the diff) which I think is best as the gearbox output shaft has a bit of flex in it and is not well supported. In fact the tailshaft place suggested I add an extra bearing in the rear gearbox housing to support the output shaft a bit better. I wonder if putting an extra bearing in the torque tube up near the gearbox would be even better, but I wonder if this would upset the operation of the tailshaft in any way. Or would it be better to move the existing bearing so that it is once again in the centre of the torque tube?

    What sort of mods are you planning for the SR20 box?

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    mmm..."lubrication". The tailshaft place just rang me to say the new shaft is ready and that they found it strange that the splines of the old stub were totally dry of oil and that normally the gearbox 'feeds' oil along the shaft to the splines/yoke. I was not aware this normally happens.

    The workshop fitting the new box did say that there was very little oil in the old box when he pulled it out. (dont tell me the Peugeot workshop that fitted my Exedy HD clutch 6 months ago didnt fill the box properly!!! And they wonder why I like to do all work on my car myself!)) Perhaps the lack of oil contributed to the failure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nisspug View Post
    mmm..."lubrication". ... Perhaps the lack of oil contributed to the failure.
    Unlikely... while it should be addressed, don't miss the real cause of failure by attributing it to lack of lubrication. The splines are not moving against anything, it it the torque tube bearing that requires lubrication (there is a grease nipple there). Resistance to rotation (stiff TT bearing, misalignment of gearbox to tt....) or exceesive torque will shear the splines. BTW, one of the works cars is fitted with two bearings. Also, if you shorten the propeller shaft you should check that it is balanced (I don't know how this is done) because it has counterweights on it so any change of length may throw off the balance.

  11. #11
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    Very interesting - where was the additional bearing placed, was it another std Pug bearing and did the shaft nead any further setup in any way with the additional bearing?
    Last edited by Nisspug; 25th January 2011 at 08:22 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos View Post
    Unlikely... while it should be addressed, don't miss the real cause of failure by attributing it to lack of lubrication. The splines are not moving against anything
    Actually it's quite common for standard 504s to strip splines if not greased with moly grease. This is because the Peugeot splines are often a slightly loose fit. Over time, the back and forth motion frets the splines away and the fit gets more and more sloppy and the fretting gets worse and worse. Usually you'll feel the increased play in the drive train for a number of years before it gets really bad and then suddenly strips.

    I've lost count of how many manual 504 wrecks I've taken apart and found the front spline on the shaft half worn away (sharp teeth, no flats on peaks) with a lot of fine ferrous oxide powder in between the teeth (the remains of what has worn off). Most of my good spare tail shafts come from automatic 504s. I guess the more gentle power application of the torque converter is kinder on the splines. The exception to this is when the rear seal on the auto box is leaking. Fluid then runs down to the back of the tube, washes out the grease and then the rear spline gets worn over time. I've only seen one of those myself, but have heard other people talk about this happening.

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  13. #13
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    You've jogged my memory Dave and I now remember stripping the tailshaft on my 504 on the road through Silvan many years ago.

    So the Pug diff doesn't oil the splines on the rear and it needs occasional greasing? What about the front spline-I wonder if the Pug gearbox provides oil to that like the Nissan gearbox allegedly does which would wash away any grease used there.

    The tailshaft workshop ran a calulator program they had and told me that based on it's measurements the 505 tailshaft will take 721 ft/lbs of torque and 9000 rpm!!!

    Also I discovered that both Chev on the Corvette and Porsche use 4 bearings inside their torque tubes as shown below.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 505 SR20DET tailshaft teeth stripped!-torque-tube-threaded-rod.jpg   505 SR20DET tailshaft teeth stripped!-torque-tube-porsche.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nisspug View Post
    The tailshaft workshop ran a calulator program they had and told me that based on it's measurements the 505 tailshaft will take 721 ft/lbs of torque and 9000 rpm!!!
    Is that engine torque or torque through the tailshaft?

    A quick google says the turbo petrol 505 had slightly more torque than the turbo intercooled diesel, 205lbft vs 195lb. Dave's website says the first gear ratio was 3.86 for either so that gives 752 - 791 lbsft. If it's torque through the tailshaft then it sounds a bit marginal to me.
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    This begs a question from me. Just throwing around ideas here.

    The uni joint from a 404 (504 wagon?) is bolted to the torque tube and the gearbox. Could we perform the same setup off the back of the nissan gearbox to solve these issues. It should solve the bareing issue too shouldn't it? Remember that Nisspug and me are using crossmembers at the gearbox too.
    Lets just say we have a few pugs about!

  16. #16
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    Default Post weld heat treatment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nisspug View Post
    Stopped at a light the other day in the 505 with SR20DET and I put it in gear and there is a loud grinding noise and no forward progress. Thought it was the Nissan gearbox which has been becoming progressively noisier over time finally giving up the ghost.

    I had it towed into a Jap import workshop that had a SH box and was willing to install it for a reasonable amount. He rang me later to tell me the solid tailshaft inside the torque tube was totally stripped bare of teeth where it mates with the gearbox output shaft! He said he had never seen this happen before. This is the tailshaft that I had the 505 stub sawn off and a Nissan stub welded on by a tailshaft workshop so that I could mate the 505 diff with the SR20 gearbox.

    It surprised me too especially since the other end of the shaft which is all std Puegeot was still OK.

    The only thing I can think of which might cause this would be a misalignment of the tailshaft with the output shaft of the gearbox. When I had the 505 flange welded onto the Nissan box so that I could bolt up the 505's torque tube to it I did not think it necessary to have the surface of the flange trued afterwards, to make sure it was absolutely parallel so I am having this done now while I wait for the new tailshaft to be welded up. Anyone have any other ideas for what could have caused this? A faulty Nissan stub seems possible but unlikely and the tailshaft place assures me the welding process does not weaken the stub.
    What post weld heat treatment did the "tailshaft place" carry out on the welded tailshaft? My guess is that the welding softened the splines and they just stripped off.

    If you have a file, file both the unharmed spline end on the tailshaft and compare the hardness to the stripped welded on end. The file should slide over the unharmed end and not remove any (or very much) metal.

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    Good suggestion bigrr. Unfortunately I picked up the re-yoked tailshaft yesterday and took it to the installer today. Maybe Hippcrostino can do the test. And they dont do any heat-treating after welding. It's interesting that the unwelded and perfectly aligned diff end of the shaft has no problems.

    Uffee: I dont know so I'll have to ring him to find out where the torque is calculated (worried again now)

    Hippcrostino: I looked in the 505 manual and they do say the 505 estate has a uni joint between the output shaft and the tailshaft. That would be handy. I wonder if you'd also need to have the big pivoting ball on the end of the torque tube, or if you could do without it.. A pic of this uni joint would be helpful. I also looked in the manual to see if the std 505 gearbox has a bearing in the housing near the end of the output shaft and it looks like it might but It's hard to tell.

    I had a closer look at the 505 tailshaft and the bearing rides on a raised and machined 'saddle' on the tailshaft so if we were to add another bearing into the gearbox end of the torque tube another another 'saddle' would probably need to be welded on, or two tailshafts cut up and joined so that it now has two 'saddles'

    I've now had the gearbox rear housing machined and they had to take about 1.5-2mm off the surface to make it square which should help. I should also have made sure while the rear housing was off that when the torque tube bolts to the rear housing that the two pieces are absolutely concentric, adjusting the bolt holes where necessary. I didn't do this and may live to regret it later.

    Hope Thanos chimes in with more info on the extra bearing too.
    Last edited by Nisspug; 27th January 2011 at 07:16 PM.

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    I agree with RR about the heat affecting the hardness of the welded-on spline, but I am invariably shown to be wrong on here, so I guess that cripples his argument.

    I absolutely fail to see how you can guarantee the co-linearity of the gearbox output shaft and the centreline of the diff pinion. If it was me, I would abandon the torque tube, and fit an ordinary prop shaft, with either universal joints, or rubber donuts, a la Lotus Elan. That should spell the end of that option as well.

    Tim

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Did the guy in the workshop say he's noticed the lower two bolts holding the torque tube to gearbox were loose at all ? This happens from time to time on 504s and 505s, causing the same problem you had. Or perhaps I should say : was he certain that the two lower bolts were still tight ??
    Misalignment, in other words. I always take out the lower 2 bolts and put locktite on them.
    When the front spline does get chewed out, the unwelded and perfectly aligned diff end of the shaft has no problems.
    You have some interesting solutions for the problem, particularly in your last post. Good luck !
    Last edited by Beano; 27th January 2011 at 07:48 PM.

  20. #20
    cjl
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    There certainly is a bearing in the back of the 505 gearbox, a needle roller bearing, the front of the tailshaft runs in and is supported by this bearing. On the wagons and 404's etc the front yoke of the uni joint coupling runs in this bearing it also supports and centralizes the rear end of the output shaft. That is why the splined section at the front of the shaft has the finely ground finish on the outside, because it is the inner race of the needle roller bearing.
    Hope that makes things a little clearer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjl View Post
    Hope that makes things a little clearer.

    Chris.
    The gearbox is Nissan.

    Tim

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    cjl
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcusack View Post
    The gearbox is Nissan.

    Tim

    Tim I am well aware of that, if you read Nisspugs previous post he asks if there is a bearing in the rear of the 505 box, hence my reply in the affirmative. Furthermore he will need a bearing in the rear of his nissan box as well to support the front of his tailshaft for the very same reasons that peugeot fitted one.
    Hope that makes it a little clearer for you as well.

    Chris.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcusack View Post
    I absolutely fail to see how you can guarantee the co-linearity of the gearbox output shaft and the centreline of the diff pinion. If it was me, I would abandon the torque tube, and fit an ordinary prop shaft, with either universal joints, or rubber donuts, a la Lotus Elan. That should spell the end of that option as well.

    Tim
    the std 505 relies on the torque tube pulling the gearbox output shaft and diff shaft into alignment and it seems to work OK when in good condition. So it should do the same with the Nissan box if it's set up correctly.

    I was interested in whether Peugeot find it necessary to use a bearing near the end of the their output shaft because the Nissan doesnt use a bearing and there might be quite alot of flex going on in the output shaft-tailshaft joint as a result. Good to know they do use one cjl.

    No Beano he didnt say they were loose. I'll ask him.

  24. #24
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    One of the reasons, well, pretty much the only one, that I post on AF less and less, and will probably stop bothering, is that it is so ****ing adversarial.

    It wasn't apparent from your post that you were unaware that the box was not Peugeot. Why take umbrage?

    Tim

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nisspug View Post
    if it's set up correctly.
    Herein lies the problem. How do you do that? The factory, no doubt, had a solution. What will yours be?

    Tim

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