What goes wrong with the late mi16 engine?
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts cav91's Avatar
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    Default What goes wrong with the late mi16 engine?

    G'day all,

    Since my car has now gone through two engine's and we no longer have an aussie frogs data base, I would like to know are there any common faults with these engine's?

    It would seem that the first engine chopped out a bearing. Which then let the piston go up to far. It hit the valves bent two broke the piston and inbedded itself in the head! This engine was only 30,000 kms old!

    The second engine has only just strated to wear out the bearings so i wil replace them and hopefully the engine will finally be good!

    So if anyone out there with good knowledge of these motors (peterT for example) Knows anything that goes wrong with these (apart from the bearings) I would be extremely appreciative if they could shine some light on my situation!! I'd like to know what else i need to replace while its apart!

    Cheers Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by cav91 View Post
    G'day all,

    Since my car has now gone through two engine's and we no longer have an aussie frogs data base, I would like to know are there any common faults with these engine's?

    It would seem that the first engine chopped out a bearing. Which then let the piston go up to far. It hit the valves bent two broke the piston and inbedded itself in the head! This engine was only 30,000 kms old!

    The second engine has only just strated to wear out the bearings so i wil replace them and hopefully the engine will finally be good!

    So if anyone out there with good knowledge of these motors (peterT for example) Knows anything that goes wrong with these (apart from the bearings) I would be extremely appreciative if they could shine some light on my situation!! I'd like to know what else i need to replace while its apart!

    Cheers Chris
    If its wearing out bearings in a matter of weeks then replacing them will do nothing, got to be a reason, somehow a lack of oil.
    Graham

  3. #3
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    Cris,

    Graham is right - you have a major issue. Look at what type of oil, and in particular the filters you are using.

    Most filters have a pressure sensitive oil bypass valve built in - if the filter you use is not to the correct specs it may be bypassing at a pressure well under that required to lubricate the motor.

    This may explain the problem with successive motors that do not have a history of weak bearings.

    Check the OEM specs and buy oils / filters to suit. I find Purflux brand filters, as recommended for the motor in question, very reliable reliable and competitively priced if bought from most Cit dealers as a pack of 6.

    AVOID EL CHEAPO FILTERS FROM SUPERCRAP TYPE DEALERS.

    Best of luck,

    Fento

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    Oils is oils, generally speaking. Won't cause this kind of short term issue. I suspect you are just unlucky. I haven't read your history in detail, but, if this is the same engine, rebuilt, I would be looking for a bent crank, to cause this sort of short term bearing damage.

    These engines are quite hardy, as long as not overheated. Peter will tell you they have a limited life, due to bore wear, but limited to what? 250,000 km? Not bad.

    Tim

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    Hey, fellas,

    I admit I'm clutching at straws here, but to have bearing problems so close together in so short a time means we are missing something major.

    To have bearing wear to the stage that the piston hits the valves means massive bearing failure. Under what conditions did the bearings fail initially?

    What kind of usage is being required of the motor?

    Dunno, but these motors are pretty bulletproof with normal useage.

    Regards,

    Fento

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    Default oil serge

    only thing i can think of is if you are doing some vigerous turning particularly to the left ,oil serge can be a problem ,also i seem to remember a oil restricter fitted to the bottom side of the head this may have fallen out and been misplaced ,allowing lots of oil going to the top end reducing pressure in the bottom end ,someone sent a pic in recently ,what is this ,apparently this restrictor fell out when the head was removed ,yours may have gotten lost in your first head job ,get the oil pressure checked .PUGS

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugwash View Post
    only thing i can think of is if you are doing some vigerous turning particularly to the left ,oil serge can be a problem ,also i seem to remember a oil restricter fitted to the bottom side of the head this may have fallen out and been misplaced ,allowing lots of oil going to the top end reducing pressure in the bottom end ,someone sent a pic in recently ,what is this ,apparently this restrictor fell out when the head was removed ,yours may have gotten lost in your first head job ,get the oil pressure checked .PUGS
    Don't forget we are talking two engines here, very hard to understand why, but replacing the bearings will achieve nothing.
    Graham

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    My two bobs is whoever built it may not have got the crank pulley bolt tension correct. It *must* be 110 NM exactly otherwise the oil pump does not have enough friction to drive correctly, and is thus starving the engine. I'd check that first.

    The correct weight specified for these engines, according to my 2001 Rellin lubrication chart, is 10W-40 SF. As mentioned above, oil filters are crucial too. pay no attention to the service interval of 20,000 km for a filter change - any mechanic will tell you this is just way too long.

    Surge is a huge issue in these under track conditions and a baffle and windage tray could help, but the UK guys seem to think the only real (100% effective) solution is to dry sump them.

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    Yes this is two engines!

    I'll give some background info on them.

    The first was overheated at some point, it was taken back to the dealer for a new head gasket. While it was there the dealer told the poor old bloke who owned it that the bearings where starting to get noisy and as a result they decided to rebuild the engine. At 201,000 kms. This engine ran fine for another 30,000 km then developed another bearing noice
    The second bearing failure ended up so bad, because It started the noise and none of the preffessionals i know could put there finger on it. (exactly the same noice as the second engine's making). They decided it was the lifters bleeding them selves up. Therefore I kept driving it and it then made a horrible noice of a brocken piston.
    (I had to rebuild the head on the engine as it lost compression on one cylinder, which ended up being a stuck valve) Which means the dealer didn't do it With there 8 thousand dollar engine rebuild! Did they actually change the bearings? So this tampered engine ended being all round dodgy.

    The second engine has come out of a wreck with about 198,000 kms and we know nothing about it! While it was out I had a new headgasket, rear main seal and the head rebuilt (stem seals, synchro seated valves etc)
    So I assumed the bearing only last to about 200,000 kms and thought it was just generic. (Which is pathetic as my series one went 510,000 kms with out needing the bottom end touched).

    The filters used where the correct purflux type (LS867B for memory) with fully synthetic oils used (cost me $70 at trade price the first time for 5 liters of oil)

    The sump has a little door in it to prevent oil surging around in the sump, but what the one in the head??

    Thanks very much for the help
    Chris
    Last edited by cav91; 12th January 2011 at 09:47 AM. Reason: punctuation
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    Oh yeah and i have to add It hasnt been revved past 5,500 RPM (anyone who knows mi16's no this is much) as I have no faith it in and didn't want to shorten it's life I just want a reliable car

    Cheers
    Chris
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  11. #11
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    No ideas? i guess I'll just have to change the bearing and see what happens!
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    Quote Originally Posted by chez00 View Post
    Surge is a huge issue in these under track conditions and a baffle and windage tray could help, but the UK guys seem to think the only real (100% effective) solution is to dry sump them.
    That was the xu9 not the xu10 engines. The later mi16 engine was the cast iron block engine used in the s16

  13. #13
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    Chris,

    chez00 may have hit on a possibility. If the crank bolt is not tight and the oil pump drive sprocket is slipping the motor will not get oil.

    Attached are a couple of arms that will lock the pulley in place. (The larger is used for hub axle nuts). The pins to fit the two larger holes in the pulley were turned from wheel bolts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fento View Post
    Chris,

    chez00 may have hit on a possibility. If the crank bolt is not tight and the oil pump drive sprocket is slipping the motor will not get oil.

    Attached are a couple of arms that will lock the pulley in place. (The larger is used for hub axle nuts). The pins to fit the two larger holes in the pulley were turned from wheel bolts.
    Seems to be the only explanation, these engines have had timing belts recently?
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Seems to be the only explanation, these engines have had timing belts recently?
    Graham
    Either that or just bad luck. Given the issues we have had with my engines it is clear that they are getting on... this seems like a particularly unusual issue to arise twice in a short period of time though.
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    I think you've got unrelated, isolated cases. Just bad luck. I also wouldn't put 110Nm through the key like Fento is doing. Much better to lock the flywheel.

    Before fitting the bearings, check the crankpins for out of round, and the same for the big ends of the conrod. If either is not round the bearing will fail prematurely.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Not really through the key, Peter, as the crank is unloaded and free to rotate, the contact areas are between the bolt face, spacer washer and pulley faces.

    If you check Cit manual you may note the recommended procedure is the same.

    Regards,

    Fento

  18. #18
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    Default Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Seems to be the only explanation, these engines have had timing belts recently?
    Graham
    Yes both engines have had timing belts done recently the second one about 700 kms ago!
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  19. #19
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    Default Fento

    Quote Originally Posted by fento View Post
    Chris,

    chez00 may have hit on a possibility. If the crank bolt is not tight and the oil pump drive sprocket is slipping the motor will not get oil.

    Attached are a couple of arms that will lock the pulley in place. (The larger is used for hub axle nuts). The pins to fit the two larger holes in the pulley were turned from wheel bolts.
    I completely missed chez00. But that might be a good point I will look at that and make sure its at 110 nm when the car goes back together!
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  20. #20
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    Default peterT

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    I think you've got unrelated, isolated cases. Just bad luck. I also wouldn't put 110Nm through the key like Fento is doing. Much better to lock the flywheel.

    Before fitting the bearings, check the crankpins for out of round, and the same for the big ends of the conrod. If either is not round the bearing will fail prematurely.
    What could the problems have been?
    When ever i undo the crank bolt i get someone to satnd on the brakes in fifth gear. Usually get them.
    How do I check crank pins?
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cav91 View Post
    What could the problems have been?
    When ever i undo the crank bolt i get someone to satnd on the brakes in fifth gear. Usually get them.
    How do I check crank pins?
    With a micrometer, you may be able to do this in situ but need to pull the motor apart to check the rods.

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    Cav91,

    Using brakes to lock-up the motor passes all stresses through the entire motor / transmission unit. This adds so much flexibilty / spring into the operation that it would be almost impossible to accurately tighten the crank bolt.

    The other issue with hub nuts is that the shock loading applied to a 'locked in gear' transmission if you use a hammer to loose or tighten the nut will exceed design parameters of many of the gearbox parts, to their detriment.

    To check on the correct crank pin sizes, clearances, ovality, bearing shell nip, etc, is a competent tradesman's area of expertise.

    Best of luck,

    Fento

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    Dug out me old photos and it appears that the oil pump drive is keyed to the crank.

    Check that the key for the oil pump is OK.

    Best wishes,

    Fento

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    Are you sure the overheating problems are resolved. Could explain why both engines died...

    I would not trust the original gauges or sensors.
    Adrian Wuillemin

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by fento View Post
    Check that the key for the oil pump is OK.
    All the XU10J4 engines I've pulled apart have been friction drive. Later engines (R and RS) are certainly keyed.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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