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Thread: 404 Diff

  1. #1
    Tadpole gnz404's Avatar
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    Default 404 Diff

    Hello all you guys!!

    It's good to be back again...

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    Well, recently mi car ('66 404) started making strange noises when releasing the clutch in 1st gear after reversing... initially it was like a click sound, but now it's a very hard noise and you can feel it while moving, i'm afraid of moving it anymore, it really sond like it's going to break, and now it appears to happen without any reason, going straight, after a corner, even reversing... i'm suspecting it could be a problem with the differential... but i don't know what to do...

    The issue here is that where i am, it's very difficult to get parts for this car (not impossible), but i was thinking to upgrade the diff from worm and drive to a 504 or a 505 (more common cars here) but i don't think is a straight swap right? im pretty sure that 504-5 are different.

    The car has a BA7/5 gearbox and i don't know if other diff ratios would be siutable for my car...

    Can anyone clear my path?

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Hi

    If you stick with the worm diff then you have no choice of diff ratios. However a BA-7-5 gives a 20% drop in engine revs, at the same road speed, over a standard gearbox (1:1 top). You can reduce the revs a bit further by running higher profile tyres.

    If you fit a modified 504 break diff you can then use the any of 504 or 504 crown wheels and pinions fitted to the 504 break carriers. You can even go LSD!

    However you need to:

    Cut out and enlarge the 404 rear tunnel to allow for torque tube to have full movement
    Modify the torque tube tube and prop shaft to get the correct length
    Either narrow the diff width or open up the rear inner and outer guards to allow for the increased track of the 504 diff.

    Peugeot tech did this to their 404:
    http://www.peugeotech.com.au/gallery...ild/index.html

    cheers


    Rob

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    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    Rob and GNZ404 if the worm has turned bronze then really a retro fit is a good idea.
    Always hated the prospect of draining the diff oil and have it come out all sparkly and golden as the worm gear came out with the oil.
    As Rob has said it's not that straight forward but when you think about it, it's all about measure and forward planning. Then measure again before you cut anything!
    The diff ratio out of a 505 GTi/STi is probably the closest at IIRC 4.11 as against 4.2, just 2% different so close enough.
    The 504 had a 3.89 for the petrol carb models and the TI's had 3.78, not sure what the various diesels had but someone should be able to advise us!
    GNZ you have started my brain ticking over as to a new project! The wife wants a modern cabrio and I'm after a 404 so my best attempt would be a retro-tech 404 DIY Targa roof four door to two door with 505Gti (or later) running gear.

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    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    Rob and GNZ404 if the worm has turned bronze then really a retro fit is a good idea.
    Always hated the prospect of draining the diff oil and have it come out all sparkly and golden as the worm gear came out with the oil.
    As Rob has said it's not that straight forward but when you think about it, it's all about measure and forward planning. Then measure again before you cut anything!
    The diff ratio out of a 505 GTi/STi is probably the closest at IIRC 4.11 as against 4.2, just 2% different so close enough.
    The 504 had a 3.89 for the petrol carb models and the TI's had 3.78, not sure what the various diesels had but someone should be able to advise us!
    GNZ you have started my brain ticking over as to a new project! The wife wants a modern cabrio and I'm after a 404 so my best attempt would be a retro-tech 404 DIY Targa roof four door to two door with 505Gti (or later) running gear.

  5. #5
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Check to see if it makes the same noise in 4th gear.

    Did you use a 404 or 504 input shaft in the BA7, or is it a 505 SR or late GR box?
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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    Tadpole gnz404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Check to see if it makes the same noise in 4th gear.

    Did you use a 404 or 504 input shaft in the BA7, or is it a 505 SR or late GR box?
    Demannu you're getting me scared, could it be the gearbox?

    I used the input shaft form a 504 BA7, and the bellhousing too...

    and the noise... how could i say... its not constant and doesn't happen when cruising, its like if you passed over a rock and produces a similar feeling, just a very hard click at the same time.. it haapens eithe turnig or when decelerating at low speeds...
    Peugeot 404 1966

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    Tadpole gnz404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Hi

    If you stick with the worm diff then you have no choice of diff ratios. However a BA-7-5 gives a 20% drop in engine revs, at the same road speed, over a standard gearbox (1:1 top). You can reduce the revs a bit further by running higher profile tyres.

    If you fit a modified 504 break diff you can then use the any of 504 or 504 crown wheels and pinions fitted to the 504 break carriers. You can even go LSD!

    However you need to:

    Cut out and enlarge the 404 rear tunnel to allow for torque tube to have full movement
    Modify the torque tube tube and prop shaft to get the correct length
    Either narrow the diff width or open up the rear inner and outer guards to allow for the increased track of the 504 diff.

    Peugeot tech did this to their 404:
    http://www.peugeotech.com.au/gallery...ild/index.html

    cheers


    Rob
    Rob thanks a lot!

    When you say to either narrow the diff or open up the inner guards, how can I narrow the diff width? from the pictures in peugeotech i see that they've opened up the guards.

    and can i keep my axles covers and axles? or are they changed too??
    Peugeot 404 1966

  8. #8
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    I used the input shaft form a 504 BA7, and the bellhousing too...

    Pretty sure you can't do that.
    Graham

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    and the noise... how could i say... its not constant and doesn't happen when cruising, its like if you passed over a rock and produces a similar feeling, just a very hard click at the same time.. it haapens eithe turnig or when decelerating at low speeds...[/QUOTE]

    Could be the planetary gears.
    I can post you a set if this is the case.
    A problem with the worm drives is that you can't get the front seals anymore and they are always in need of replacement. We need to come up with a solution for this.
    Graham

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    Tadpole gnz404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    I used the input shaft form a 504 BA7, and the bellhousing too...

    Pretty sure you can't do that.
    Graham
    Mmmm now i'not sure anymore, the input shaft is from a 504 and the bell housing is the one for hydraulic clutch releasing system.

    I remeber that the input shaft had to be machined in one end to fit the hole in the flywheel.
    Peugeot 404 1966

  11. #11
    Tadpole gnz404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post

    Could be the planetary gears.
    I can post you a set if this is the case.
    A problem with the worm drives is that you can't get the front seals anymore and they are always in need of replacement. We need to come up with a solution for this.
    Graham
    Well that's why i want to upgrade to a more common hypiod diff.

    Thank for the offer but how much could cost the shipping... is across the earth
    Peugeot 404 1966

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnz404 View Post
    Rob thanks a lot!

    When you say to either narrow the diff or open up the inner guards, how can I narrow the diff width? from the pictures in peugeotech i see that they've opened up the guards.

    and can i keep my axles covers and axles? or are they changed too??
    As far as I know Peugeotech used a 504 break diff and made the car fit the diff.

    I've never measured up myself, but I've heard the 404 axle tubes can be modified to fit the 504 casing (slot the holes) I believe the 404 axles are too short (just a tad) and the 504 are too long, so you need to shorten them. There was also something said about using two 404 RHS axle tubes when you do the mod. I'm not even sure if the 404 splines are the same as the 504.

    Personally I would go the standard 504 break (or ute) diff path because it gives spares which are readily available and you then fit 504 front disks to the 404 stubs and have identical wheels.

    Looking at the Peueotech conversion, it seems the car is running 235 width tyres, which compounds the width issue even more. with 185 width tyres you be OK for width. Either way you would want a 504 break diff assembly next to a 404 assembly and a car available to measure it all up.

    There is quite a lot of cutting and shutting the body to make it all fit 'tho.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnz404 View Post
    Well that's why i want to upgrade to a more common hypiod diff.

    Thank for the offer but how much could cost the shipping... is across the earth
    Not much they are quite small.
    You need to pull the diff apart and have a look though. Remove the 6 bolts that hold the side plates on to the bronze wheel.
    Graham

  14. #14
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    If you used a 504 input shaft (with the endless screw oil seal) on the BA7/5 (which all had the conventional rubber oil seal), you will have ripped a tooth from either the input shaft or the layshaft.

    The rubber sealed BA7s and the screw sealed BA7s had a different pitch on the input shaft teeth. You might get a few thousand KMs out of the setup, but eventually they'll fatigue to the point of breaking a tooth off. Once one's gone, the others won't be far behind. It will only get worse.

    To confirm, take the car for one last drive. In fourth gear the noise will all but go away, as there is no power being transferred from the input shaft to the layshaft.

    I'd stake my left arm on that being the problem. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  15. #15
    Tadpole gnz404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    If you used a 504 input shaft (with the endless screw oil seal) on the BA7/5 (which all had the conventional rubber oil seal), you will have ripped a tooth from either the input shaft or the layshaft.

    The rubber sealed BA7s and the screw sealed BA7s had a different pitch on the input shaft teeth. You might get a few thousand KMs out of the setup, but eventually they'll fatigue to the point of breaking a tooth off. Once one's gone, the others won't be far behind. It will only get worse.

    To confirm, take the car for one last drive. In fourth gear the noise will all but go away, as there is no power being transferred from the input shaft to the layshaft.

    I'd stake my left arm on that being the problem. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.


    Yes, that's my setup!!! the one with the screw seal!! ohhh...

    well now let's pray for the teeth ripped off are from the input shaft, right? if that's the case what is the correct setup for leaving the hidraulic clutch disengaging system? do i have to get a 505 input shaft and machine the bell housing to fit a traditional rubber seal?

    Thanks a lot Demannu!
    Peugeot 404 1966

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