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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 404 Performance Mod.s

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    I would like to extract more power from a 404 engine. What works (and more importantly, what is a waste of time/money)?
    95 MI16
    71 404 U10 ute
    66 404 coupe
    55 203C (gently warmed) gone... sold...

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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default 404 performance...

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi 03
    Hi

    I would like to extract more power from a 404 engine. What works (and more importantly, what is a waste of time/money)?
    Kiwi 03.
    Fit a 2litre square port engine ex 504/505. Some who have done this have found it necessary to fit the 404 sump for clearance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi 03
    Hi

    I would like to extract more power from a 404 engine. What works (and more importantly, what is a waste of time/money)?
    Just about everything is a waste of time and money, if you have a need for performance just drop in a 2litre.
    I am presently building a stock engine for my 404 even though I have easy access to hot cams, special inlet manifolds 2 litre engines etc.
    The car is so nicely balanced and the 1600 running properly has heaps of mid range torque.
    Graham

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Never owned one, but speak as a gearhead. First time I looked inside the bonnet of one, I was amazed "There's stacks of room for a turbo!"... Depending on how bent one was, it ought to be possible to make up a retro-styled forced induction system for the motor.

    Lots of creative car modifying people on the South Island, too - some right in your city.

    Regards, Adam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo
    Never owned one, but speak as a gearhead. First time I looked inside the bonnet of one, I was amazed "There's stacks of room for a turbo!"... Depending on how bent one was, it ought to be possible to make up a retro-styled forced induction system for the motor.

    Lots of creative car modifying people on the South Island, too - some right in your city.

    Regards, Adam.
    Even a standard car spins the inside rear wheel on corners.
    Better to make use of the cars superb braking and turn in.
    I have owned many many 404s over the years and the more you modify them the worse they become. That includes turbos etc.
    I and others have turned in amazing peformances in rallies with stock cars over the years but have had nothing but dissappointment when we tried to prepare them as one would do a Datsun 1600.
    403s and 203s are different and don't mind a bit of power. Something to do with the wider tracks possible and the front end design.
    Graham

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    Tadpole feugman's Avatar
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    Speaking from experience as l owned a 1970 404, drop a 2 litre 504 motor in the car, this will give you really great performance! If you really want power drop a 2 litre fuel injected motor out of a 504ti.
    Out of all the french cars l've had over the years, my fondest memories are of my 404. Absolutely great on a long trip and capable of doing the Melbourne to Brisbane run in 12hours in comfort.(of course l would never do such a run today, l'm to old)

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    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Feugi ole son, you must be losing your syncro's, Melbourne - Brisbane is about 1400 kilometres as the crow flies, reasonabley negating your chances of having driven it in 12 hours. Last I remember you'd be flat out making Sydney - Brisbane in 14 hours.

    What's broken here?

    ed ge

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    Feugi ole son, you must be losing your syncro's, Melbourne - Brisbane is about 1400 kilometres as the crow flies, reasonabley negating your chances of having driven it in 12 hours. Last I remember you'd be flat out making Sydney - Brisbane in 14 hours.

    What's broken here?

    ed ge
    Yeah, 1700 via the most direct route, average speed of 140km/h including stops!!!!!
    Graham

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    Fellow Frogger! Phil Whitton's Avatar
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    Well the maths might seem dodgy but in "78 I towed my bugeye sprite shell behind my 404 from Sydney to Maroochy in 13 hours. From the toll gates at Hornsby to the Mobil Surfair. 2 drivers and we even stopped for a resting 404 at the Moombis. Mind you it was slow going up but off the clock going down.

    Best tow car Ive had.


    Bon chance

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    Fellow Frogger! Phil Whitton's Avatar
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    Back to the engine swap details: As I'm currently doing a swap 404 to 504 I thought it would be easy. OK the sump didnt fit: Rx change oil pickup filter. OK pump shaft is different: Rx change pickup shaft.
    OK water pump is different RX change water pump to find the plug had fallen out and in spinning, grooved into the head. RX machine new seat and replace with bigger than 52mm plug and new water pump.................

    Le tete is now on the mill awaiting machining............

    PJW

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default engine conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Whitton
    Back to the engine swap details: As I'm currently doing a swap 404 to 504 I thought it would be easy. OK the sump didnt fit: Rx change oil pickup filter. OK pump shaft is different: Rx change pickup shaft.
    OK water pump is different RX change water pump to find the plug had fallen out and in spinning, grooved into the head. RX machine new seat and replace with bigger than 52mm plug and new water pump.................

    Le tete is now on the mill awaiting machining............

    PJW

    I did the 404 to 504 conversion many years ago

    I recall an 1800 504 sump and flywheel lets the 2L engine go straight in without any other changes (in a BA7 car) anyway.

    FYI info Phil a 505 xflow radiator fits easily with a couple of extension legs (and slight trimming of the grille panel) plus a mixture of 404/505/504 hoses cut to get the right bends and a few pieces of copper tube to join them up. I posted about a year ago after doing this.

    You can then add a relay and use the thermo switch in radiator and run an electric fan. Much quieter when cruising.

    Graham will say the 404 radiator is OK but I never had any success.

    It certainly makes for an entertaining car especially with 185x 14 (have the 404 centres cut down ) tyres and an 1 3/4 exhaust. The only problem is that run out of revs in top gear - mine would pull 6000rpm + in top.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac
    I did the 404 to 504 conversion many years ago

    I recall an 1800 504 sump and flywheel lets the 2L engine go straight in without any other changes (in a BA7 car) anyway.

    FYI info Phil a 505 xflow radiator fits easily with a couple of extension legs (and slight trimming of the grille panel) plus a mixture of 404/505/504 hoses cut to get the right bends and a few pieces of copper tube to join them up. I posted about a year ago after doing this.

    You can then add a relay and use the thermo switch in radiator and run an electric fan. Much quieter when cruising.

    Graham will say the 404 radiator is OK but I never had any success.

    It certainly makes for an entertaining car especially with 185x 14 (have the 404 centres cut down ) tyres and an 1 3/4 exhaust. The only problem is that run out of revs in top gear - mine would pull 6000rpm + in top.
    1800 flywheel is the same as the 2 litre.
    Use the 404 engine mounts complete but must be 1969 or later, believe it or not they changed the block casting on the later cars and the 2 litre continued with these different angles.
    I only found this out recently after years of tearing apart engine mounts in early cars that I put 2 litre engines into.
    Graham

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Onya Phil,

    Sydney - Maroochy is 850k's as the crow flies (lucky I don't have a touring atlas) so your towing feat was conducted at minimum 65kph, not allowing for extra k's on road, fuel stops, towns, traffic, traffic lights or anything else.

    We were better men in those days, sad and true.

    ed ge

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo
    Never owned one, but speak as a gearhead. First time I looked inside the bonnet of one, I was amazed "There's stacks of room for a turbo!"... Depending on how bent one was, it ought to be possible to make up a retro-styled forced induction system for the motor.

    Lots of creative car modifying people on the South Island, too - some right in your city.

    Regards, Adam.

    The idea of a supercharger appeals, and it more "period" for the events I have in mind.
    95 MI16
    71 404 U10 ute
    66 404 coupe
    55 203C (gently warmed) gone... sold...

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    id be thinking a Mi16 engine bolted upto a ba10 would the be cream of the crop..

    a 404 with 2 cams. 16v and injection.. sounds nearly perfect

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie
    id be thinking a Mi16 engine bolted upto a ba10 would the be cream of the crop..

    a 404 with 2 cams. 16v and injection.. sounds nearly perfect
    The BA10 won't fit as the rear gearbox mount won't fit arond the rear of the box.
    It would be interesting to see where the engine mounts would attach to the block. If it could be done it would be a great conversion for 203/403 due to the lightness of the alloy block.
    Graham

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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    oh i see. Hmmmmmmmmmmm

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default V6 into a 404

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    The BA10 won't fit as the rear gearbox mount won't fit arond the rear of the box.
    It would be interesting to see where the engine mounts would attach to the block. If it could be done it would be a great conversion for 203/403 due to the lightness of the alloy block.
    Graham

    Graham,

    Do you think in 404

    1) A Ba7-5 could be adapted to the MI 16 engine with a sensible level of work ?
    2 ) Anticipate height problems with the Mi 16 engine

    3) Is the dizzy off the end of the engine and heading for a firewall clash?

    4) Are there likely to be cooling piping and sump issues

    I have been researching a Honda C22A V6 (1990 Legend) as a donor but
    the engine seems a tad too wide to fit. Make a good donor, 145 kw standard, 165 chipped. S/H cost is about $1500 complete including all acc.

    Although the BA7 trans would probably not handle this power & a double engine to gearbox to torque tube adaption is over the top.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac
    Graham,

    Do you think in 404

    1) A Ba7-5 could be adapted to the MI 16 engine with a sensible level of work ?
    2 ) Anticipate height problems with the Mi 16 engine

    3) Is the dizzy off the end of the engine and heading for a firewall clash?

    4) Are there likely to be cooling piping and sump issues

    I have been researching a Honda C22A V6 (1990 Legend) as a donor but
    the engine seems a tad too wide to fit. Make a good donor, 145 kw standard, 165 chipped. S/H cost is about $1500 complete including all acc.

    Although the BA7 trans would probably not handle this power & a double engine to gearbox to torque tube adaption is over the top.
    No idea, I haven't even thoght about such a conversion. I was just wondering how engine mounts could be grafted onto the block in places suitable for a rear wheel drive car.
    My present thoughts on 404s is to keep then standard and enjoy their period charm. I've found that's the most satisfactory mode of ownership.

    Graham

  20. #20
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    I 80% finished a 504 Mi16 Turbo project, before I decided that I needed money urgently, needed a car urgently and simply didn't have time, so my 504 got a 2 litre XN2 motor on LPG. The Mi16 motor and the various gearbox adaptions I still have lying around. Some of this information may prove useful in fitting it to a 404.

    Adaption 1:
    Mi16 engine with custom adapter plate to 505 STi BA7/5 speed. Needed a custom clutch and spigot bearing to allow the input shaft splines and spigot to engage into the spigot bearing and clutch driven plate.

    Adaption 2:
    Mi16 engine with BE1 FWD bell housing with a lot of aluminium cut off it, with 2 extra holes drilled to fit an XN BA10/5 speed. Engine sits at a wierd angle, never got far with this idea. The advantage was that the BA10/5 input shaft reached into the spigot and if you used a 505 STi clutch, the splines were the same and the driven plate is exactly the same diameter as the Mi16 clutch. This also gives you the hole in the right spot for the crank angle sensor. However, the BA10 won't work for you very well in a 404. The BE1 bell housing pattern will not adapt as easily to a BA7 pattern gearbox.

    I was always aiming for a 30 degree slant on the engine, it left enough clearance under the 504 bonnet, and also left plenty of room for a turbo on the exhaust side.

    Clearance was to be tight for the distributor cap. It would fit in there, but you would need to remove the engine to change it. Not very practical.

    The other show stopper is the intake manifold. It would need to be cut and shut to have the throttle body fitted to the opposite end, otherwise you have to have your air intake in side the car. I never got around to this.

    For engine mounts, I made two bit plates that bolted onto the driveshaft centre bearing carrier on the exhaust side, and the alternator mount and gearbox-engine bolts on the intake side. Heavy and unwieldly, I made them to fit standard 2 litre 504 engine mounts. There is room for improvement there.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

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    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default mi 16 engine adapation

    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu
    I 80% finished a 504 Mi16 Turbo project, before I decided that I needed money urgently, needed a car urgently and simply didn't have time, so my 504 got a 2 litre XN2 motor on LPG. The Mi16 motor and the various gearbox adaptions I still have lying around. Some of this information may prove useful in fitting it to a 404.

    Adaption 1:
    Mi16 engine with custom adapter plate to 505 STi BA7/5 speed. Needed a custom clutch and spigot bearing to allow the input shaft splines and spigot to engage into the spigot bearing and clutch driven plate.

    Adaption 2:
    Mi16 engine with BE1 FWD bell housing with a lot of aluminium cut off it, with 2 extra holes drilled to fit an XN BA10/5 speed. Engine sits at a wierd angle, never got far with this idea. The advantage was that the BA10/5 input shaft reached into the spigot and if you used a 505 STi clutch, the splines were the same and the driven plate is exactly the same diameter as the Mi16 clutch. This also gives you the hole in the right spot for the crank angle sensor. However, the BA10 won't work for you very well in a 404. The BE1 bell housing pattern will not adapt as easily to a BA7 pattern gearbox.

    I was always aiming for a 30 degree slant on the engine, it left enough clearance under the 504 bonnet, and also left plenty of room for a turbo on the exhaust side.

    Clearance was to be tight for the distributor cap. It would fit in there, but you would need to remove the engine to change it. Not very practical.

    The other show stopper is the intake manifold. It would need to be cut and shut to have the throttle body fitted to the opposite end, otherwise you have to have your air intake in side the car. I never got around to this.

    For engine mounts, I made two bit plates that bolted onto the driveshaft centre bearing carrier on the exhaust side, and the alternator mount and gearbox-engine bolts on the intake side. Heavy and unwieldly, I made them to fit standard 2 litre 504 engine mounts. There is room for improvement there.

    Scott,

    Thanks very much for your detailed explanation of what clearly has been a hell of a lot of work. I really appreciate you taking the time to tell me.

    Sounds like it will not be really happy graft and it is best is to stick with XN series motor.

    I have toyed with the idea of LPG in past posts in this forum and tend to think that is the best way to go.

    I have in my mind a TI head (with hardened valve seats) and inlet manifold a LPG mixer in front of that.

    regards & thanks

    Robert

  22. #22
    Tadpole feugman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    Feugi ole son, you must be losing your syncro's, Melbourne - Brisbane is about 1400 kilometres as the crow flies, reasonabley negating your chances of having driven it in 12 hours. Last I remember you'd be flat out making Sydney - Brisbane in 14 hours.

    What's broken here?

    ed ge
    Hello edgedweller, what sounds like pure fantasy, was achieved and of course it was by doing well in excess of the speed limit, never to be repeated.
    Even when l took my 604 to Brissie one time we got the little dear upto 200k on the speedo with no effort on one of the clear straight stretches.
    My conclusion was a 2 litre 504 motor in my 1970 404 was more than enougth power to enjoy the classic ride of a 504 with adjustable Koni's out back.

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