boost with no cooler
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! crims's Avatar
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    Default boost with no cooler

    what do you guys thinks is a safe boost to run with no cooler on a 205?

    the waste gate i've got i think is set at 7-10psi, which i think the car will hold up to

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger!
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    I would run some sort of cooler, as you want to keep the inlet temps down, with a supercharger you could probably get away with it, but with a turbo they run very hot because of the exhaust gas, do a search on here for 'turbo 205', there is a guy from NZ running a turbo on his 205 and he has tried a couple of different cooler set ups, send a PM and he will probably be able to give you some tips.
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    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    The intercooler doesn't dictate what amount of boost you can safely run. The main determining factor for boost level is the CR. High compression engines will only take a low boost level before pre-ignition and lower compression motors will stand up to more boost before ths happens.
    The I/C will cool the inlet charge and allow it to be denser and therefore a more potent mixture for ignition.
    Is the motor modified for boost crims or are you just turbo-charging a standard Pug mill?
    If standard the 7-10psi will be more than enough and you would most probably have to get a decomp plate to run much over 10psi.
    WHat management system are you running for the turbo? I'd suggest finding an old S**b 9000 around '86-88 and getting the EMS unit off that. You can modify the boost control units to allow higher boost for longer! Lots of fun too.
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    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Inlet temp & keeping the air/fuel ratio correct is whats important. you can have hi compression & hi-boost, but in road cars it gets harder.
    I would try a few test runs and see what inlet temperatures you see & will the ecu cope with forced induction?? - Chris
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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! crims's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY
    The intercooler doesn't dictate what amount of boost you can safely run. The main determining factor for boost level is the CR. High compression engines will only take a low boost level before pre-ignition and lower compression motors will stand up to more boost before ths happens.
    The I/C will cool the inlet charge and allow it to be denser and therefore a more potent mixture for ignition.
    Is the motor modified for boost crims or are you just turbo-charging a standard Pug mill?
    If standard the 7-10psi will be more than enough and you would most probably have to get a decomp plate to run much over 10psi.
    WHat management system are you running for the turbo? I'd suggest finding an old S**b 9000 around '86-88 and getting the EMS unit off that. You can modify the boost control units to allow higher boost for longer! Lots of fun too.
    its a stock s3 motor

    i was just going to use a rising rate, and richen the afm

    but i like the saab idea, has this been done much, and on what cars?
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    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    I have read a couple of threads here and there with the S**b units installed.

    S**b used Bosch LH2.2 efi and thier own turbo management system on early 900/9000 turbos and an in-house design on later models which is why you need the early model units.
    It is therefore fairly basic and only has knock sensor and the blow-off or by-passs valve as major components.
    It basically controls boost by the theory that after a certain amount of time at full boost the engine is getting fairly hot and the boost is then reduced by a small amount to preserve the engine. This is easily modified by the addition of a couple of resistors and minor re-wiring of the ecu ...this gives full boost when demended and only requires the addition of an adjustable boost controller. Easy (i even have the details of the mod if you ever need them)
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    Fellow Frogger! crims's Avatar
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    it doesn't matter that i'm using a small internal waste gate, saabs use a large external one don't they?

    i'll have to do a google search
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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    An S1 would have been a better choice for boosting with its' lower comp ratio. Perhaps a small intercooler from one of the jap import wreckers. I expect they are almost given away. I expect 7lb would be a practical limit for an S3 motor. Water injection can help a lot with detonation.

    I would think the std motronic (S3) would be struggling to work well with even 7lb of boost, and std injectors would be too small given a rise of 60Hp, with even your low level of boost.

    You could gain a little out of the injectors by raising the pressure, but being the high impedance type will not operate well at more than 50lb. A programmable ECU is obviously the easier option, or as Chris suggested a Bosch ECU and gear from a similarish engine that is already fitted with turbo.
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    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crims
    it doesn't matter that i'm using a small internal waste gate, saabs use a large external one don't they?

    i'll have to do a google search
    The 9000 has an internal w/g I think...mmmm yes it is internal
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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default boost with no cooler..

    You probably wont want to know this. Volvo turbo'd engines and I presume SAAB also were fitted with hollow stemmed sodium filled exhaust valves for cooling.
    What would the availability of these be for the Pug ?

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Any cooler is better than none in my opinion, assuming the flow is not restricted. Find a 2nd hand Supra cooler. They're about 400x300x65 and come in black only so you won't see it from any angle. Tube and fin too so lag is not worsened, although they aren't as good at cooling as a bar and plate unit.

    If you are going to do it, do it properly the first time and decompress it or buy a lower CR motor as previously mentioned.

    The S**b turbo would be an internal 'gate Garrett wouldn't it? Most S**bs are fairly conservative in terms of output so an externally gated turbo wouldn't be neccessary. With the exception of some Porsches pretty much all Euro's use Garrett turbo's don't they?
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    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Yes checking up the Saab is an internal gate system. T3 on an early 900/9000
    I agree any I/C is better than none.
    If you are after a cheap I/C try a S**b one as they are used regularly becaus eof this...always some on ebay and they fetch little $$ there too which is good if you are after one.
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  13. #13
    Gus
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    Water injection could be another alternative to get a drop in inlet temps...

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Bluey's Avatar
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    what do you guys thinks is a safe boost to run with no cooler on a 205?

    the waste gate i've got i think is set at 7-10psi, which i think the car will hold up to

    80's turbo's (VL, cordia, exa etc) ran without coolers
    I have a mate with a carby turbo'd pinto escort. He runs that much boost without intercooler but with water/octane booster injection. It took a welded shut wastegate (20psi+), no water injection and burnouts to hole a piston in his previous dead standard engine.

    Don't need "sodium filled" valves.
    Using the injection system off an 80's Saab is like fitting a Holley double pumper and mechanical fuel pump to your 406 SV.
    You need every sensor and ecu, then you have to set up crank and cam triggers the same and adapt the TPS, MAP, Inlet & Eng. temps sensors.
    It would cost more to this than buy a 2nd hand Fuel only ecu, which are floating around for under $400 if you look in the right places. You just wire up the standard sensors, bar maybe a MAP sensor and/or temp sensor and dyno the sucker.

    Turbo: Nissan T25 or Mazda RX7 can be found in serviceable condition for $200-$400

    Cordias and Exas have bugger all compression that's why they can cope. Water inject it.

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