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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Default Cat or no cat

    If I put a R21 unleaded(acording to Graham wallis) head on my 85 fuego,and plumb the emission stuff as it was in the R21,should I be running a cat or not.I'm sure this is a grey area, as from what I've been told cats became manditory in 86,and my motor was/is a leaded carby motor, but all the egr and 'octopus' as I call it is in the bin.I have not removed the cat because I never had one, but am fairly keen to not get a $10,000 fine from the EPA.What type of Hp would I be loosing by installing one.I'm about to do some exhaust work on the car, so now would be a good time to think about installing one.Any thoughts would be apreciated.
    Jo

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    Last edited by jo proffi; 28th January 2006 at 08:51 AM. Reason: spelt wallis wallace

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    The motor's year is the engine block year. Whichever is the newer of the motor or the chassis, is the clincher for NSW regs on emission controls; you must meet or exceed emissions requirements appurtenant to that year. That may include both gaseous emissions (don't think they tested new cars on that in '86) and control devices such as cats, carbon canisters, EGR etc.

    Depending on who you get pineappling you - the rozzers or RTA inspectors the degree of "wink and nudge" varies somewhat. Keep it looking stock; try to incorporate as much of the original gear as you can, even if there is the odd blanking plate between gaskets, or hose with a ball bearing jammed into it midlength.

    If you have no reasonable means of knowing that a block year may not be the same as your original (you asked for an 86, got sold a block and used it etc etc), then pleading ignorance will be well-enhanced by the presence of OE gear as mentioned above. I don't know where the burden of proof lies with such prosecutions - whether you have to prove you weren't, or they have to prove you were!

    But, realistically nobody will ever know unless they are having a "pull up everyone" day or you get caught majorly hooning.

    A good cat you can actually see through; get a high flow one and the loss will be negligible. Blowby tends to kill cats as the extra oil removes their effectiveness. Check with the maker of your lead substitute that it will not harm cats. Don't trust the person selling it to you. For the cats, maybe look on Evilbay and see if there is half of a dual system for a bent eight available (or buy a whole system and split with another member).

    Cheers, Adam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi
    If I put a R21 unleaded(acording to Graham wallace) head on my 85 fuego,and plumb the emission stuff as it was in the R21,should I be running a cat or not.I'm sure this is a grey area, as from what I've been told cats became manditory in 86,and my motor was/is a leaded carby motor, but all the egr and 'octopus' as I call it is in the bin.I have not removed the cat because I never had one, but am fairly keen to not get a $10,000 fine from the EPA.What type of Hp would I be loosing by installing one.I'm about to do some exhaust work on the car, so now would be a good time to think about installing one.Any thoughts would be apreciated.
    Jo
    You will need the cat as it takes the place of the EGR etc.
    Graham

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    thanks for your comments.Thats the long answer, and the short. I have actually had the thing blue-slipped with this curent set-up,and maybe because it all looks so original no questions were asked.As I dont want to put any more crap into the atmosphere than is necissary for me to enjoy my driving experience,I think I will get a cat.It also might act in my favour if the proverbial does hit the fan, as it shows I'm keen to follow the conventions set out by the law.I still have the original drive train sitting in the shed if that happens.
    Re lead substitutes....ummm ...what lead substitutes?I had always assumed that the R21 head had hardened valve seats and didn't need lead substitutes.Is this correct or am I harming my motor by just using BP ultimate with nothing else added.
    Jo

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    Gone Fishin' Haakon's Avatar
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    Jo - Your motor will be happy on straight 91 ULP. This is what all R21 motors were tuned for, and of course have all the requisate hardened seats.

    I still reckon you would be able argue your case for not having a cat. All you have done is improve upon the emmision controls used on a 80s car. The tricky bit comes when they look for certain emmision control technologies and find different ones. You have to determine is the law;

    a) must display emmision control tech as fitted at the factory for that model year regardless of what the actual emmisions are, or;

    b) conform to a certain set of emmisions, as measured under set conditions at the tail pipe. I would argue for this one.

    Your annual roadworthy inspector wont care - he will see a standard looking EFI system and because its pre 1986 he wont look for a cat. A roadblock for a mass emmisions inspection by the EPA are rare and might cause a hassle. But they test emmisions. If they dont, ask for an emmisions test to confirm your car exceeds 1986 requirements.

    Or you could just put a cat on. Depends if you want to spend the money or not Generic Hi Flow cats are fairly cheap (~$150 I think) and I doubt you will notice any differance in performance. Plus it makes you a little bit greener, which is never a bad thing.

    Also be aware that cats actually create a lot of heat from the exothermic reaction in them. You will notice a lot of cars have heat sheilding along most of the system, were a leaded car will not. Cat equipped exhausts run a lot hotter. So, careful placement of the cat is important, as is some sort of heat sheild around the cat to avoid melting your carpet from underneath!! And then take it on a run and check the floorpan inside the car where the exhaust runs and makes sure no other parts now need sheilding.
    Last edited by Haakon; 28th January 2006 at 09:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    Jo - Your motor will be happy on straight 91 ULP. This is what all R21 motors were tuned for, and of course have all the requisate hardened seats.

    I still reckon you would be able argue your case for not having a cat. All you have done is improve upon the emmision controls used on a 80s car. The tricky bit comes when they look for certain emmision control technologies and find different ones. You have to determine is the law;

    a) must display emmision control tech as fitted at the factory for that model year regardless of what the actual emmisions are, or;

    b) conform to a certain set of emmisions, as measured under set conditions at the tail pipe. I would argue for this one.

    Your annual roadworthy inspector wont care - he will see a standard looking EFI system and because its pre 1986 he wont look for a cat. A roadblock for a mass emmisions inspection by the EPA are rare and might cause a hassle. But they test emmisions. If they dont, ask for an emmisions test to confirm your car exceeds 1986 requirements.

    Or you could just put a cat on. Depends if you want to spend the money or not Generic Hi Flow cats are fairly cheap (~$150 I think) and I doubt you will notice any differance in performance. Plus it makes you a little bit greener, which is never a bad thing.

    Also be aware that cats actually create a lot of heat from the exothermic reaction in them. You will notice a lot of cars have heat sheilding along most of the system, were a leaded car will not. Cat equipped exhausts run a lot hotter. So, careful placement of the cat is important, as is some sort of heat sheild around the cat to avoid melting your carpet from underneath!! And then take it on a run and check the floorpan inside the car where the exhaust runs and makes sure no other parts now need sheilding.

    As I said the cat takes the place of the previous emission control devices, a late model engine with no cat will pollute as much as a pre 1976 car.
    Where is the oxygen sensor mounted?
    Graham

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    Gone Fishin' Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    Where is the oxygen sensor mounted?
    Graham
    Engine pipe just below the flange gasket.

    An EFI ULP motor with no cat will still be better than a pre 86' carby motor regardless of how well controlled it may have been, simply by virtue of much much better control of fuel mixtures. A cat will just make it even better.

    The motor itself wont care if it has a cat strapped on or not - its located after the last sensor.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Thanks for the comments,Haakon.I think I'll take the option of using what call point B. b) conform to a certain set of emmisions, as measured under set conditions at the tail pipe.
    I've just returned from the exhaust shop, as I'm having some extractors fitted,and the guy there seemed quite forthcoming with information, and he was of the opinion that point B would sufice,and that as its a renault fuego that looks standardish,the chance of getting pinged are slim, and then there would be no contest that The EFI is more efficent than the carby it replaced.Apart from anything else,I'm getting up to an extra 180 Km per tank!!!!!His concerns with putting in a cat were that I'd probably knock it off over a speed bump,(and this was without telling him how I drive), or set the car on fire.He enlightened me to the fact that there are plenty of cars that came out in that cusp period of 85 that are designed to run unleaded EFI, but dont run a cat.His sugestion was that if it came to it, just say that the motor is a leaded one,Which it undoubtably is,being a J6R and I've performed mods to make it more efficient, and leave out the bit about it being half a R21.I know for a fact that it is runing sweet as, at idle, because I had it tested last week,after your sugestion,haakon.
    So for now,no cat.
    Jo

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    As I said the cat takes the place of the previous emission control devices, a late model engine with no cat will pollute as much as a pre 1976 car.
    Where is the oxygen sensor mounted?
    Graham
    I find that hard to believe,Graham, as the mixture seems spot on with the EFI, and the carbie seems to always be a comprimise.
    If we remove the scenario from hypothetical to real, and compare all my fuego's Ive ever owned ,with their dodgy carbies and suspect emmision devices, to the curent setup,There would be absolutely no contest.
    Of course every one of those fuego's would have failed any emission test.
    Another issue for me is the fact that because of my steep driveway,I need to warm up a carbied fuego for a few minutes, wheras the efi just flies up with no warm up period required to get the power I need.Average this out over a year, and that is a hell of a lot of fuel burned just for nothing.
    Jo

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    hi

    hmm I am of the opinion that Cats are not necessary, the Platinum acts as a catalyst (hence the name), it converts carbon monoxide into carbon dioxide, Nitrogen monoxide into Nitorgen dioxide and then trioxide i think.

    These reactions will all occur in the air once the exhaust has left the pipe, because there is an abundance of oxygen.

    Cats mainly are there to make ur car seem cleaner at the tail pipe.

    you can remove the contents of a cat, and just use the emty shell in your exhaust system just after the lambda sensor and no one will know the difference.
    Cats do a fair bit of muffling so if you gut it be prepared for some extra noise.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by aston
    hi

    hmm I am of the opinion that Cats are not necessary, the Platinum acts as a catalyst (hence the name), it converts carbon monoxide into carbon dioxide, Nitrogen monoxide into Nitorgen dioxide and then trioxide i think.

    These reactions will all occur in the air once the exhaust has left the pipe, because there is an abundance of oxygen.

    Cats mainly are there to make ur car seem cleaner at the tail pipe.

    you can remove the contents of a cat, and just use the emty shell in your exhaust system just after the lambda sensor and no one will know the difference.
    Cats do a fair bit of muffling so if you gut it be prepared for some extra noise.
    Get the vehicles emissions tested to see if the cat you have is working anyway.
    having a cat is one thing but having one thats actually working is another.
    i found out mine was stuffed when i had my car tuned.
    from the outside it looked ok but was not doin its job properly.
    when i changed it for a new one the emissions dropped radically.
    it may have the reqired cat but may still not pass an emissions test.
    i have seen the police do spot emissions tests at times when they have spot roadworthy test blitzez but i must say not for about 5 -6 years though.
    a high flow commodore cat is what i put on my 205 gti and it works a treat ,it cost $350 on the car.-BAZZ
    BAZGTI
    87' 205 gti anthacite grey
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    momo steering wheel.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    I dont have a cat.
    if they do an spot emission test,I'd probably pass.
    Aston's coments are interesting,as I dont realy know my chemistry to that degree.How long does this 'natural' procces take?
    If this is true,I'm strugling to understand why they are fitted to every car?
    or is it a bit like sewerage,in that it will break down eventually, but if everyone does one in the same hole the natural systems will not cope. Please help me to understand this one.
    Jo

  13. #13
    Gone Fishin' Haakon's Avatar
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    Cats do work, and were introduced mainly to help with air quality in big cities like LA. They alter some pollutants and convert them to other less nasty stuff. But the big thing they do is reduce the amount of Nitrogen Oxides which are a big cause of visible smog. In short, they help air quality, not the greenhouse effect

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