J5,6,7R cranks all cast?
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! sapito's Avatar
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    Default J5,6,7R cranks all cast?

    I was wondering if anyone can answer my querie, i have searched all over the net and so far I can only find that they are cast (hence huge journals) and heavy. If so has any heard if any other forged cranks could be machined to fit?
    I have someone in Chile looking for the elusive 12v R21txi head and sump brace.
    I know some believe its not worth the effort but I feel this engine is quite an underfrog.
    regards, David.

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    Last edited by sapito; 15th January 2006 at 09:47 PM.

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    Why the sump brace?

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    Fellow Frogger! sapito's Avatar
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    Maybe wrongly termed? The brace that strengthens the block on the bottom.
    I heard it called sump brace, lower block brace and main bearing web brace and more. I guess it was a factory brace to stiffen the block.

    Ive also looked at spanish pages from sth america and yet to find good articles on working these engines. Dave Mcbean has mentioned 200hp has been achieved in latin america somewhere but cant find this info either.

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    Fellow Frogger! sapito's Avatar
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    anyone with a link on specs of this engine?

    I know its 88 x 82 or 88 x 89 for the 2.2.

    Dave McBean has a pic of one on his site and thats about it.

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    Fellow Frogger! sapito's Avatar
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    bump burp anyone?

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    Fellow Frogger! sapito's Avatar
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    bump anyone pls where I can find specs like bearing sizes and journal diameters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapito
    bump anyone pls where I can find specs like bearing sizes and journal diameters?
    Haynes manual?
    These motors are so long lasting that very few have ever pulled one apart, so a lack of knowledge.
    Graham

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    Fellow Frogger! sapito's Avatar
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    Didnt want to buy the manual yet until I see all the measurements to see if I can make the internals better or if they are worth working on. Otherwise is back to the 807 big bore project.

  9. #9
    Gus
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    R21 Haynes calls the sump brace the "crankcase stiffener casting", but they never were ones for snappy terminology.

    Haynes says the engines also have a smaller sump (to fit the brace), possibly a different oil pump, and an oil cooler, but are otherwise the same as the 8v. It also says the 2.2L stroked version has the same brace/sump, so you might be able to source that locally (did the 2.2 version come out here?)

    Otherwise, Haynes says (about the 8v engine, should apply to the 12v)

    - Main bearings shell type aluminium/tin material

    - Main bearing journal diameter: 62.880mm

    - Crankpin diameter : 52.296mm

    And, yes, 88 x 82 is right for bore x stroke.

    Hope this helps. Let me know if you need any more specs.
    Last edited by Gus; 22nd January 2006 at 01:57 PM.

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    Fellow Frogger! sapito's Avatar
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    Great info Angus on the brace thingy and I think I found a 2.2 litre R25 the other day I have to go and check it again its fuel injected. could you pls fill in the following?
    --------------------------------------
    Block Height =
    Bore = 88mm
    Overbore =
    --------------------------------------
    Crank
    Stroke = 82 (2L) 89 (2.2L)
    Rod Bearing OD =
    Rod Thickness =
    --------------------------------------
    Head 12V
    Combustion Chamber CC =
    Number of Valves = 3
    Intake Valves Diametre =
    Exhaust Valve Diametre =
    --------------------------------------
    Rods
    Length 2L= 2.2=
    Piston End Bore =
    Piston End Thickness =
    Big End Bore =
    Big End Thickness =
    --------------------------------------
    Pistons
    Bore = 88mm
    Pin Height =
    Pin Diametre =
    Dish/Dome CC =
    --------------------------------------
    Deck clearance =
    Head gasket height =
    --------------------------------------
    Last edited by sapito; 22nd January 2006 at 10:18 PM.

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    I cant help but wonder how many horsies you are planning to squeeze into your stable??
    Jo

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    Ill let you know a rough guess Jo when I see the potential of the internals and head flow capabilities ( valve sizes help here as port design can be improved if needed at all as renault engineers knew exactly what they where doing with the super tornado effects 3 valver <hows that for Haynes like terminology .

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapito
    Ill let you know a rough guess Jo when I see the potential of the internals and head flow capabilities ( valve sizes help here as port design can be improved if needed at all as renault engineers knew exactly what they where doing with the super tornado effects 3 valver <hows that for Haynes like terminology .
    so whats mine?? A wheezy puff 2 valver
    Just because ,and for the look, I was going to put an alloy sumps that was lying around, onto my fuego, but a closer inspection of my steel sump revealed some pretty heavy carnage caused from scraping stuff, so I decided for the good old steel sump that will at least bend back again ,and not shatter if its hit hard enough.I would imagine an alloy sump would not take to kindly to being smashed into by a bit of road.What car are you planing to put this hot motor into??I know nothing about motor internals,but am very interested in hearing about your plans, and findings as they emerge .
    jo

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    Fellow Frogger! sapito's Avatar
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    Jo Id love to say Im putting one into a 750 chassis with an r25 box and huge flares with 15 inch panasports but itll be heading into a.....
    http://www.freewebs.com/datsunb10

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapito
    Jo Id love to say Im putting one into a 750 chassis with an r25 box and huge flares with 15 inch panasports but itll be heading into a.....
    http://www.freewebs.com/datsunb10
    Why a dourvin motor?? Surely there would be better choices of motor for a project like that.Ie, something more powerful off the shelf and lighter.
    jo

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    Fellow Frogger! sapito's Avatar
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    Jo.
    Well concisely here goes I need a
    1. non pollution engine (pre july 76) the Douv2ltr block was avail before that and the late 3v head fits.
    2. without an iron block!!!! or heavy sand cast alloy block
    3. budget "off the wreckers" not 40,000 dollar "off-the-shelf "speedway engine.
    4. lightweight (douvrin blocks weight nothing - the cranks weigh more than almost any other 2 litres!)

    The only engine choice easily avail is the 807 but gets expensive to 2ltr and unreliable. "Remember non pollution possible engine is the key."
    So far the blood curdling rotary is the only budget candidate but I would still like to see whats possible with this underated "pressure die cast" alloy block.
    This is because rotors are super thirsty, very noisey and eat mufflers with their exhaust heat which is ususally higher than turbo engines.
    regards. David.

    For a douvrin speedway engine check this next link but I cant read french!
    http://www.auto-evasion.com/blog/voyageur79-60.html
    Last edited by sapito; 24th January 2006 at 07:06 PM.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    hey, that looks just like my fuego ......not
    Like i said before,I'm very interested in your project,(in spite of the fact that its not a fuego) so keep this thread going when make any discovories.
    Jo

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    Gus
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    FWIW, here are the details (from Haynes) that I sent sapito this arvo:

    * = differs from 8v version

    Cylinder Liner Height = 143.5mm (2.2L=148.55mm)
    --------------------------------------
    Block Depth = 149.25 to 149.75mm
    Bore = 88mm
    Overbore =
    --------------------------------------
    Gudgeon Pin Length 65.0mm*
    Gudgeon Pin Diameter 23.0mm*
    --------------------------------------
    Head 12V
    Height = 90.5mm* (8v is 111.6mm)
    Combustion Chamber CC =
    Number of Valves = 3*
    Intake Valves Diameter =30.3mm & 36.3mm* (one small valve, one big)
    Exhaust Valve Diameter = 40.0mm*
    (all 90 degree valve seat angle)
    CR 9.3:1*

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapito
    Jo.
    Well concisely here goes I need a
    1. non pollution engine (pre july 76) the Douv2ltr block was avail before that and the late 3v head fits.
    2. without an iron block!!!! or heavy sand cast alloy block
    3. budget "off the wreckers" not 40,000 dollar "off-the-shelf "speedway engine.
    4. lightweight (douvrin blocks weight nothing - the cranks weigh more than almost any other 2 litres!)

    The only engine choice easily avail is the 807 but gets expensive to 2ltr and unreliable. "Remember non pollution possible engine is the key."
    So far the blood curdling rotary is the only budget candidate but I would still like to see whats possible with this underated "pressure die cast" alloy block.
    This is because rotors are super thirsty, very noisey and eat mufflers with their exhaust heat which is ususally higher than turbo engines.
    regards. David.

    For a douvrin speedway engine check this next link but I cant read french!
    http://www.auto-evasion.com/blog/voyageur79-60.html
    Sorry to disappoint you BUT I found the following:

    August 1977: Introduction of the 20 TS with all-new 2.0 litre J series engine (with 110 HP), five-speed manual or three-speed automatic gearbox, power-assisted steering and equipment similar to the 30 TS but still with two rectangular headlamps

    Graham

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! sapito's Avatar
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    Sorry to dissapoint you BUT

    The Citroen cx20 was the first to use this engine when Peugeot took over Citroen in 74 (maybe no thanx to the birotor they implemented in 73- it almost killed mazda completely also well it did and Ford saved them). http://www.globalcar.com/datasheet/C...nCX20Break.htm
    The only SOHC citroen had in the 70s 74-75 was the Douvrin 2 and 2.2 all in carb form.
    We wee viva la France!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapito
    The only SOHC citroen had in the 70s 74-75 was the Douvrin 2 and 2.2 all in carb form.
    We wee viva la France!
    Graham is correct, the Citroen CX only introduced the Douvrin motor in 1980 withthe Reflex and Athena models. Previously it was the Citroen 2 litre motor.

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! sapito's Avatar
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    Then what OHC engine is that on the link I provided?
    its definately not the ohv engine the capacities are 1995 and 2165 like the douvrin and unlike the simca ohc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapito
    Then what OHC engine is that on the link I provided?
    its definately not the ohv engine the capacities are 1995 and 2165 like the douvrin and unlike the simca ohc.
    The full story below:


    The CX is the replacement for the DS. Although the DS is very comfortable and a joy to drive, the CX is at least as good and a little more modern (for those who like this). In some countries the Break is called Safari. Here are the changes year by year:
    1975: The first year there are only 3 types with the same engines as the DS:
    CX 2000: 1985cc, 102 DIN hp, 174 km/h, 4 speed gearbox.
    CX 2000 Économique: same as 2000 but with different gear ratios. (only for 1975).
    CX 2200: 2175cc, 112 DIN hp, 179 km/h,.
    This year the 2200 still has large hubcaps but the next year these will be replaced with the small hollow ones from the 2000.
    1976: Lots of new models!:
    CX Pallas: Luxurious version, with lots of rubber on the doors and bumpers.
    CX Diesel 2200: 2175cc, 66 DIN hp, 146 km/h.
    CX Break 2000/2200: Largest European Stationwagon of all time! (I think).
    CX 2400 Prestige: 2347cc, 115 DIN hp, 180 km/h. The longer version of the CX. Built on the CX Break floorpan, it's roomier inside then any Mercedes!
    1977: On the 2400 there is a semi automatic gearbox called C-Matic as an option. New model is the CX 2400 GTI. 128 DIN hp, 189 km/h. Not available as Break or Prestige.
    1978: New engines: 2500cc Diesel, 75 DIN hp, 147 km/h (4-speed), 156 km/h (5-speed). 2400cc Injection, 128 DIN hp, 190 km/h (5-speed), 180 km/h (C-matic). C-matic transmission available on CX 2400 injection Pallas and Prestige models.
    1979: New console with different heating and ventilation. 5-Speed 2500 Diesel now really available.
    1980: 2 New models: Athena and Reflex. They replace the 2000cc model. The only difference apart from the name is the engine. 2000cc with SOHC, 106 DIN hp, 4 or 5 speed. The 2500 Diesel receives a new model as well. It's the long version like the petrol Prestige but with Diesel engine it's called Limousine.
    1981: Econometer for all models. 5-Speed gearbox only on Athena, 2500 Diesel Super and Pallas. The 2400 carburettor gains 5 hp. The C-matic is replaced by a ZF automatic gearbox, available on 2400 carburettor and injection models. The GTi receives a small spoiler on the bootlid.
    1982: All cars get wider front wings to give room to the new TRX tires fitted on the GTi and as option on 2400 Pallas and Prestige. The Breaks get the 2400 injection engine which means the 2400 carburettor disappears. Braking system is reviewed with speed controlled system as option on some models.
    1983: New names:
    Reflex -> CX 20.
    Athena -> CX 20 TRE.
    CX 2500 Diesel Reflex -> CX 25 D.
    CX 2400 Injection Pallas -> CX Pallas IE.
    Other changes include new grille and front indicators.
    1984: 2500cc Diesel Turbo available. 75 hp becomes 95 hp. 2400cc Petrol engine replaced by 2500cc engine. 138 DIN hp. 200 km/h for Pallas IE and Prestige. 210 km/h for GTi.
    1985: New rear view mirror, electric oil level gauge and seats. 2 New models: 25 RI, 138 DIN hp (down tuned GTi) and 25 GTi Turbo, 168 DIN hp, 220 km/h.
    1986: Introduction of the series 2. This includes: plastic bumpers front and rear and dashboard. New model is the 22 TRS, 2165cc, 115 DIN hp, 177km/h. ABS optional on all petrol injection and turbo diesel models.
    1987: Intercooler on turbo makes the Turbo 2.
    Graham

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! sapito's Avatar
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    1977 it is
    I wonder how much pollution junk there is?
    An air pump and carbon canister? I hope it doesnt have an airpump?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapito
    1977 it is
    I wonder how much pollution junk there is?
    An air pump and carbon canister? I hope it doesnt have an airpump?
    My ZDJL has Carbon Canister, EGR and Pulsair with L Jetronic.
    Graham.

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