ignition and getting rid of the dizzy
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 47
  1. #1
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default ignition and getting rid of the dizzy

    I am building a programmable ignition (Jaycar kits) in a bid to get rid of the dizzy, only just realised it won't get rid of the dizzy.

    It has a central unit and a separate a coil driver (plus knock sensing unit). So in principle it is designed to drive the coil and then use the dizzy rotor arm to send the spark to each plug. Can use the dizzy reluctor to trigger or any other device imaginable.

    If I could do the spark distribution electronically then I can just bin the dizzy for good.

    If I couldn't do better I know I could use some sort of counter to divide the coil signal into four, trigger four coil drivers which drive four coils and each would fire a plug. But I know there are better ideas. For instance, the 205Si ECU is driving a coil with four outputs (perhaps similar to four coils) for the plugs.
    How is that accomplished (I mean logistically) by the ECU? In principle I think I know. I would just need to find a wiring diagram that would tie in with my ignition controller, I suppose.
    The way I see it, it can be done with such a counter that would count to four and switch on four outputs in turn either after the ignition controller module and use four coil drivers/four coils or after the coil driver and use just one and four coils.

    Anyone have such a circuit diagram they wouldn't mind sharing?

    Advertisement
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 11th May 2013 at 03:07 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    19,485

    Default

    http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/edis.html

    You need to get a crank position trigger (and with some cam phase as well) to use any system with individual coils.

    AFAIK there is no way to avoid using HT switching system and not sense crank positions.

    A Ford EDIS ignition module based system like megajolt would seem the easiest way.

    However the step to megasquirt is that much different and seems to the method of choice for many people.

    You may need to be content just to have reliable ignition advance and leave HT switching to the dissy.

  3. #3
    Administrator
    mistareno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    4,926

    Default

    1980/90 Renault's use a distributor simply to send HT to the right plug.

    They have a TDC sensor integrated into the flywheel and a pre programmed digital ignition curve with a map sensor for load referencing.

    Some have a knock sensor also.

    The distributor has a rotor button in it and that is it.

    Seems to be a pretty reliable system.

    What car is to going into?

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    Thank you, Rob. I have a crank trigger. What does the EDIS do?

    205GTI, Mr Reno. Early Jetronic ECU.

    I was thinking I can use that to trigger it four times (file down another three pairs of teeth) per revolution if need be. I have also imagined a way to build a cam trigger which would not need the dizzy. Similar to having four Pertronix pick-ups on the cam. That is not the problem. The problem is to make sure each coil is fired individually when it should be. Given that I invested money in my system I don't want to go back to Megajolt which is more expensive. Megasquirt again, requires dyno tuning and expert input which is costly. All I want is to get rid of the dizzy.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Thank you, Rob. I have a crank trigger. What does the EDIS do?

    .
    nothing without a megajolt or megasquirt to control it.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    19,485

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Thank you, Rob. I have a crank trigger. What does the EDIS do?

    205GTI, Mr Reno. Early Jetronic ECU.

    I was thinking I can use that to trigger it four times (file down another three pairs of teeth) per revolution if need be. I have also imagined a way to build a cam trigger which would not need the dizzy. Similar to having four Pertronix pick-ups on the cam. That is not the problem. The problem is to make sure each coil is fired individually when it should be. Given that I invested money in my system I don't want to go back to Megajolt which is more expensive. Megasquirt again, requires dyno tuning and expert input which is costly. All I want is to get rid of the dizzy.
    http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13682593794796

    Link as posted earlier explains EDIS, as Alex quite correctly points out, you would need to interface to an advance system.

    So there is a good reason why distributors were used, even with early EFI stuff. Because it's complex to entirely replace them.

    The choice is yours "complexity" or a cludge with SC kit + the and old locked dizzy.

    For my money I look at a hall or inductive trigger distributor , connected to a Bosch BIM *** module.
    Many specialist ignition firms alter Camira distributors , both the avance curve and mounting to suit the intended application.

    Pertronix et al are OK but most time the advance mechanism in a 20 year old is in ordinary condition so you don't get the full benefit. By the time you repair and regraph and buy a pertronix it's line ball with a "special" from ignition rebuilder.
    Last edited by robmac; 11th May 2013 at 07:15 PM.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    The SC (silicon chip) module (actually there's about four including the programmer) deals with the advance and can be mapped, so you don't need any advance info from the dizzy.

    Now is the crank sensor on a 205Si a VR? Because I have that and the flywheel. If I can use the EDIS module to drive the coil(s) then it seems my problem is solved.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  8. #8
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,562

    Default

    EDIS module needs something like a Megasquirt to control it.

    The EDIS takes its input from a toothed 36-1 wheel then converts it into a form the Megasquirt sees as the input from a dissy, also produces a spark for the plugs, no advance so the car won't run well with just the EDIS.
    The Megasquirt/Jolt looks at its advance table and sends the EDIS, via data connection, the information needed for it to vary the spark timing as required.
    I have one of the Jaycar kits, worked OK but slow and fiddly to set up without a proper lap top, just a hand controller.
    Also, no facility to save your program on file. One good thing is that you can use it as a piggy back controller to modify the existing curve, this would be the easiest way to go.


    Standard 205 Motronic has 60-2 VR sensor.
    Megasquirt is happy with this.

    Graham


    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    The SC (silicon chip) module (actually there's about four including the programmer) deals with the advance and can be mapped, so you don't need any advance info from the dizzy.

    Now is the crank sensor on a 205Si a VR? Because I have that and the flywheel. If I can use the EDIS module to drive the coil(s) then it seems my problem is solved.

  9. #9
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    16

    Default

    Also google Nodiz.co.uk Basically megajolt that doesn't require the EDIS module AND will read a 60-2 trigger. Use Commodore coilpacks and you're good to go.
    I usually run a Hyundai Crank Sensor on the Megajolt units with VR coilpacks (take the module off the bottom and use 1/4 Male spade connectors to wire them up.)

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    Thank you, Graham, r8nut.

    Trying to solve my problem I was actually looking at EDIS and reading the patent application (description and reading the schematic diagram), surprise, surprise. It turns out it does exactly what I asked Rob to help me build. It's a stupid flip-flop that sends the ignition signal alternately to one of the coil packs. Tried to figure out if I could use an EDIS8 and have a normal setup (with one coil per cylinder fired individually) rather than wasted spark, but it requires a little bit more effort so I gave that idea the arse. I may go back in the future if I get bored.

    All this exercise got me thinking and since I already have an Si flywheel, I counted the teeth, and yes, there's 60 of them as you already knew. Now since I decided to use an EDIS4, I was thinking of using the Si flywheel, but that won't work, because the EDIS is software locked to count 35/1. Then I had another bright idea. what if I drilled 36 holes around my other GTI flywheel and put screws (allen head) in them of the right size such that the EDIS sensor will read those? Well, I think it would work. That way, I can play around with which screw I take out to give the signal such that the sensor is going to stay where the TDC sensor is on Si/later GTI. Mine is an early GTI, doesn't have the TDC sensor, but the hole in the g'box (actually clutch cover) is there. We'll see what will come out of this bodgery, but it is promising to be fun.

    Graham, I thought about that too, but building the hand controller and the rest of the stuff was fun, so I'll plod on. besides, the ignition "map" is very simple, just 10x10 (or is it 15x15?), so I can just jot it down on a piece of paper and keep it in my glovebox for reference. My intentions are however not to fiddle with it, I'll find somethinng that works and stick with that. Oh, by the way, EDIS in limp mode gives 10deg BTDC, but that's it.

    I'll have a look at those links too, r8nut, eternally grateful to you too. That shit sounds promising if I can in the end use the Si flywheel and save some money on machining the GTI flywheel (kinda sorry to give that one up, 36 holes with screws would have looked uber cool on my flywheel, plus the freedom to play with advance on the go by taking screws out and moving them around - fun! But we'll see).

    PS. Hmmm. Nodiz has no knock sensor. Where do they explain how to use it with a 60-2 trigger?
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 23rd May 2013 at 02:54 AM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,568

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    That shit sounds promising if I can in the end use the Si flywheel and save some money on machining the GTI flywheel (kinda sorry to give that one up, 36 holes with screws would have looked uber cool on my flywheel, plus the freedom to play with advance on the go by taking screws out and moving them around - fun! But we'll see).

    OMG. You really are nuts. You won't spend a dime on an aftermarket ECU (in conjunction with a standard Si 60-2 trigger and coil pack) that would solve your problem instantly, but you would spend money machining a flywheel to 36-1. I can't believe I wasted my time writing this.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    I can't believe after all my explanations to you (specifically) that you still don't get it. I don't have anywhere to go on a dyno. You might want to remember this.

    By the way, where did I say money was the reason I don't want and aftermarket ECU?

    I think you need to understand that being helpful means first and foremost trying to understand what sort of help is sought. No use banging on about what you know and what you do and so on if one can not use any of that.

    Drilling and tapping a flywheel is easy. I could do it myself if it came to that.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 23rd May 2013 at 06:12 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,568

    Default

    Why do you need a dyno? Just enter the standard ignition curve into a table.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    For an aftermarket ECU you need the fuel map as well.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,568

    Default

    Why? You don't have to use the fuel side. I thought you wanted ignition only? Isn't Megajolt ignition only? Or there are a multitude of aftermarket ECU's you could use in ignition only mode.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  16. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,301

    Default

    Haha peter don't you know the OP loves complicating everything?!
    Yes the MJ is ignition only. It is cheaper than building the jaycar kits and it is still the cheapest way forward in the present case. It does require 36-1 however. For one of my MJ conversions i took of the harmonic balances and drilled 36 holes in its circumference, then joined two into one with a dremel. Ie zero cost trigger wheel.

    If the 205si has a coil pack with 4 ht leads i would think is a wasted spark setup? So seeking some clever way of driving with 4 trigger signals per engine cycle us not going to work.

    it seems to me that any alternative to MJ is either more work or more expensive or both. And for no gain

    Sent from my GT-P5110 using aussiefrogs mobile app
    Last edited by alexander; 23rd May 2013 at 08:39 PM.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    Alex is right (somewhat).

    I am also confused when you say ECU and then talk about ignition. Now that you clarified, I understand what you mean.

    Yes, there's a whole bunch of ignition options available. Megajolt is nice, but doesn't take knock input (or they're not very clear in their explanation on their website). Doesn't mention it works with 60-2 either. The other option (nodiz, see above r8nut's post) doesn't explain either whether or not and how it works with a 60-2 teeth setup. No knock input either. When I started building the Jaycar kit I didn't have any idea where it was going to end up. Bought it on a whim, you could say. You know, to take the mind off other things. Doesn't matter.

    As for the trigger wheel, I am thinking along the same lines as Alex. Maybe I'll drill a flywheel, maybe not. We'll see. But think of it. Wouldn't that be the coolest flywheel ever? All those screwheads, nicely and misteriously lined up?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,568

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    If the 205si has a coil pack with 4 ht leads i would think is a wasted spark setup? So seeking some clever way of driving with 4 trigger signals per engine cycle us not going to work.
    Yes, it's wasted spark. ie two double ended coils fed from two ignition inputs, 1&4 and 2&3.

    Why do you want knock? An unnecessary complication IMO. Stick with the basics and do it well. A correctly tuned engine won't go anywhere near knocking.

    Graham does Megasquirt with 60-2. Why not use that?

    "Any M-N missing tooth wheel (M>N, N - the number of missing teeth - must be consecutive) can be used with MegaSquirt-II (V2.5+ code). "

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    Again, Megasquirt.

    True, knock shouldn't be a problem. But my engine is past it's first flush of youth and I think it is knocking, though the advance is set up correctly. Maybe it's carbon deposits in the chamber, who knows? I am using 100RON fuel and I can still feel it.

    I am building a new engine as we speak but this experience makes me not want to risk a brand new engine, no matter how small the risk is. Like I said, I'll see what happens.

    I think both Megajolt and the other place (nodiz) are developing software to make their products work with OEM TDC setups like that on the 205Si, and they may not be that far off. I also read something on the megajolt site that sort of leaves the question with an unclear answer about knock sensor input, I probably need to read more about it.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,301

    Default

    without going to the site to remind myself of exact details, i think the MJ has an additional map which can adjust the primary map, based on some input eg the output of a knock sensor. ie you can specify how much to retard the ignition at each map point, if the input for that adjustment map is triggered.

    my reading of the knock issue, however, was that is a lot more complex than you might think anyway. there is (obviously!) a lot of noise going on in a motor, and detecting what is, or is not, knock isnt necessarily all that easy. OEM knock sensing is done with filtering you wont be able to replicate, and apparently only 'listens' for knock during a small part of the cycle on one of the cylinders. so it requires engine phase input as well. that isnt to say it couldnt be used, but rather it is unlikely useful knock sensing is going to be available with any of the alternatives.

    MJ is definitely tied to 36-1 trigger wheels, as MJ merely modifies the operation of the EDIS, and EDIS is hardwired to 36-1 input.
    As i read it, Nodiz specifically says it works with 60-2 trigger wheels, but the Nodiz is actually more expensive than a MS II, so it is hard to see why you would buy the Nodiz.
    Last edited by alexander; 24th May 2013 at 04:26 AM.

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    8,496

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    OEM knock sensing is done with filtering you wont be able to replicate, and apparently only 'listens' for knock during a small part of the cycle on one of the cylinders.
    Whats so difficult to replicate about a band filter??? The hard bit is deciding what frequency to set it at.
    The device does not require engine phase input. It can work that out for itself based on the spark timing alone.
    It doesn't need to know which cylinder is knocking referenced to the crank.

    Jo

  22. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,301

    Default

    ok fair point about the spark timing, so when you have worked out the filter circuit, written the code, and incorporated it into the appropriate device, be sure to send it to him.

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    8,496

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    ok fair point about the spark timing, so when you have worked out the filter circuit, written the code, and incorporated it into the appropriate device, be sure to send it to him.
    I'll just send him this...... J&S.

    The good people (person??) at J&S have already done all that development for us and packaged it in a nice little box.


    Jo
    Last edited by jo proffi; 24th May 2013 at 10:44 AM.

  24. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,301

    Default

    jo, i didnt say that it is not technically possible, or that noone sells commercial products for the purpose.
    what i said is in the context of Almond Eyes objectives, which include not spending a lot of money.
    the J&S products certainly look like da goods, but they do cost near on USD 600.

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    The Jaycar kit comes with a knock sensor module, and the ignition module takes the input straight in, and the software is all ready to deal with it, so that is all taken care of guys, thank you. I just need to decide what sensor I want and get it.

    Where did you find the nodiz mention about the 60-2 setup Alex? Can you link it here, please? Maybe that's exactly why I would pay the money and get that! The main reason is that it can use the 205Si flywheel I already have and that would save me some screwing around with a trigger wheel.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •