Powerspark ignition on 504
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  1. #1
    Member pugperson's Avatar
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    Default Powerspark ignition on 504

    On all my classic cars one of the first jobs I do is to fit Hall Effect electronic ignition triggering in the place of the points. I find setting points tedious, and ditto the drift in ignition timing that occurs as the points wear.

    For the 504 I decided to go for the Powerspark unit, which I purchased from www.simonbbc.com. The price was great, and the shipping to Australia was incredibly quick.

    After noting the distributor position (for rough initial timing before setting accurately with a timing light) and the rotor button position (to facilitate easy re-insertion of the distributor to engage with the drive tangs), I removed the distributor and removed the points.

    The Powerspark unit was a doddle to fit, using common sense more than the directions on the packaging which didn't quite refer to this particular unit with the 'remote' sensor that moves with the vacuum advance. A good point compared to other units (of other brands) I have fitted to other vehicles was the inclusion of some thermal grease, which ensures a good 'heatsink' transfer of heat from the unit to the baseplate.

    The job took probably 15 minutes, and the photos are below.
    Powerspark ignition on 504-p1010071.jpgPowerspark ignition on 504-p1010072.jpgPowerspark ignition on 504-p1010073.jpgPowerspark ignition on 504-p1010074.jpg

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    I recommend this unit to anyone with a 504!
    Neil

    1977 504 GL

    (see it at http://www.grouseguitars.com.au/peugeot )

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! rubyalpine's Avatar
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    I've got the same product from the same supplier, on my Renault 10 and had no problem fitting it and I am very happy with it.

    Henry

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    What spark plug gap does this allow you to run? Have you noticed any improvement in performance?
    Peugeot 504 Intercooled T04 Turbo.

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Neil,
    Did you have to specify the different length wiring, short or long, for the coil mounting?
    It looks like the condenser becomes redundant?

  5. #5
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    No spark gap of course, electronic switching

    Quote Originally Posted by callipygous View Post
    What spark plug gap does this allow you to run? Have you noticed any improvement in performance?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    No spark gap of course, electronic switching
    Spark plug gap, not points gap. I'm running 1.4 mm on my MicroSquirt EDIS powered 504.
    Peugeot 504 Intercooled T04 Turbo.

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    Yes, of course, sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygous View Post
    Spark plug gap, not points gap. I'm running 1.4 mm on my MicroSquirt EDIS powered 504.

  8. #8
    Member pugperson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by callipygous View Post
    What spark plug gap does this allow you to run? Have you noticed any improvement in performance?
    Hi. The car is yet to be registered, so I haven't done any road miles (not that I'll admit to!)

    I've also done a lot of work undoing the brainless servicing and repairs done by the specialist mechanics the car has been to for the last 30 years. Unbelievable. The 2nd carburettor wasn't even starting to open at full throttle, I doubt the air filter has been changed in 10 years (I'll bet they charged for it though), the throttle cable was incorrectly routed and had rubbed through the outer and almost completely through the inner on the bottom of the air filter housing, timing was retarded to blazers, a gear linkage was incorrectly fitted (giving very 'rubbery' left-to-right gate selection), rear brake pads had about 1mm of lining left (caught just in time!), air-conditioning air ducts had been incorrectly re-fitted, engine was over-filled with oil, the clutch adjustment on the cooling fan screwed up tight (so the fan never disengaged, despite the switch functioning perfectly), and probably a few other things I've forgotten about.

    This is from a Melbourne inner-east suburban highly-regarded Peugeot specialist where the car was religiously serviced every 6 months irrespective of whether many km had been travelled or not.

    Mind you, it had nice new points which were nicely gapped! They're now superfluous, of course, as is the condensor. I actually left the condensor in place as otherwise I'd have had to grind a bit off the attaching screw to prevent it fouling on the vacuum advance mechanism. Plus, it looks standard.

    I have fitted similar units (different brands) to my 1950 Mercedes 220S, '74 Bedford CF Holden-engined campervan (both Pertronix) and '65 Gilbern GT1800 (Lumenition Magnetronic) and in each case have noticed improved fuel economy, better idling, easier starting, and yes, I have increased the spark plug gap from the standard 35 thou to 45 thou (from about .9mm to 1.2mm), but I see no reason 1.4 couldn't be handled easily. It depends on high tension leads too, of course.

    Bottom line though is that the minimal cost of a simple hall-effect points replacement is well worth it. There isn't the wizardry available with much fancier dedicated electronic systems, but I actually enjoy fiddling with mechanical/vacuum advance curves. I just hate adjusting points and seeing dwell and timing drift as the points wear! All in the past, for well under $100 a time.
    Neil

    1977 504 GL

    (see it at http://www.grouseguitars.com.au/peugeot )

  9. #9
    Member pugperson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Neil,
    Did you have to specify the different length wiring, short or long, for the coil mounting?
    It looks like the condenser becomes redundant?
    No, I simply specified year and engine type, and exactly the right kit arrived in my letter box a week or so later. Leads were all the correct length, correct terminals supplied; I couldn't believe how complete and tailored it all was!

    The condenser does indeed become redundant, although I left it there to keep the mounting screw from fouling the vacuum advance (easier than grinding the screw) and it looks standard (other than the dual low-tension wires between the coil and the distributor - a real pedant could hide this in some black shrink tubing).
    Neil

    1977 504 GL

    (see it at http://www.grouseguitars.com.au/peugeot )

  10. #10
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugperson View Post
    No, I simply specified year and engine type, and exactly the right kit arrived in my letter box a week or so later. Leads were all the correct length, correct terminals supplied; I couldn't believe how complete and tailored it all was!

    The condenser does indeed become redundant, although I left it there to keep the mounting screw from fouling the vacuum advance (easier than grinding the screw) and it looks standard (other than the dual low-tension wires between the coil and the distributor - a real pedant could hide this in some black shrink tubing).
    I put a Hot Spark Hall Effect kit and a new coil on the Renault R8 about 6 months ago. I think the combination might have improved running a bit. Of course the main benefit is no more points and capacitor. I've just done 8,500 km to NSW and back and it didn't miss a beat. I fitted the kit with the distributor in the car - a bit fiddly as no matter what I did the rotating magnet ring actually just touched the red switching box, but filed down a tad to reduce the diameter by a fraction of a mm all was well.

    Excellent gear I reckon. Of course you still have the centrifugal advance and vacuum systems as standard mechanical, so the distributor still needs to be in good working order.

    For Hot Spark you specify distributor by car make/model.

    I agree it is easy and well worth doing.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Have just spent a hour or two attempting to order a kit for my 504.
    Filled out all the necessary only to be told repeatedly that I'm not doing it correctly?

    Attempted an e-mail asking why only to get the message that I haven't entered the verification code correctly.

    Getting a bit cheesed off Mr Simon

  12. #12
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Have just spent a hour or two attempting to order a kit for my 504.
    Filled out all the necessary only to be told repeatedly that I'm not doing it correctly?

    Attempted an e-mail asking why only to get the message that I haven't entered the verification code correctly.

    Getting a bit cheesed off Mr Simon
    Try http://www.hot-spark.com/

    See you Sunday perhaps?

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Johnno,
    Thanks for your reply. The HotSpark unit looks identical to the PowerSpark.
    After cooling off for 24 hours I've re-ordered with success this time.

    No, I wont be at Whiteman to-morrow. Would be nice to have had a yarn with yourself and others.

    Cheers,
    Wily.

  14. #14
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Johnno,
    Thanks for your reply. The HotSpark unit looks identical to the PowerSpark.
    After cooling off for 24 hours I've re-ordered with success this time.

    No, I wont be at Whiteman to-morrow. Would be nice to have had a yarn with yourself and others.

    Cheers,
    Wily.
    They all look the same to me, and I suspect one manufacturer. Mine took a bit of fiddling to get exactly right regarding position of the red bit relative to the round bit. You can't check static TDC, only dynamic timing, so I did mine in the car so as not to change anything. Goes well.

    I have a 123 coming for the CX. Fully electronic distributor, built in Holland for me with programmable timing.

    See you at the next FCD then!
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  15. #15
    Tadpole
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    Ebay UK sells Simons electronic ignition kits - Landed here for around $75 - that was about 12 months ago

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Hulloo, Hullay!
    My Power Spark Kit arrived today. 10 - 12 days from ordering.
    Guess what? The parts picker has given me only one of two screws that hold the red thingy. Blast! A fossick through my collection of shrunken heads. I mean screws, or a trip to my nuts guy. Might see if he can do me a couple of small "e" clips to replace that evil hairpin.

  17. #17
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Hulloo, Hullay!
    My Power Spark Kit arrived today. 10 - 12 days from ordering.
    Guess what? The parts picker has given me only one of two screws that hold the red thingy. Blast! A fossick through my collection of shrunken heads. I mean screws, or a trip to my nuts guy. Might see if he can do me a couple of small "e" clips to replace that evil hairpin.
    Bugger. You should email them and ask for more screws.

    If you are really stuck, I have a spare kit with screws and could donate you one. My spare kit is usually in the spare parts kit in case mine fails when away from Perth, so I don't need both screws.

    Not negative really.... Just cautious when doing the odd big trip (8,500 km last time).


    I fitted my kit with the distributor in the car, so as to preserve the static timing setting.

    Cheers

    John
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Thanks Johnno,
    I intend contacting my new best friend Simon for screws but I will still have a gander through my stuff.

  19. #19
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Thanks Johnno,
    I intend contacting my new best friend Simon for screws but I will still have a gander through my stuff.
    Fair enough. But shout if you hit a brick wall.

    If I recall correctly, you need to check that the primary resistance in the coil exceeds 3 ohms or something like that or you'll burn out the Hall Effect gear. I replaced my 48-year old SEV coil with a new one from the Hot Spark folk at the same time. We won't start discussions about originality... I've already fitted an alternator when the generator's bracket cracked and fell off (about 1987).

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Johnno,
    Yes the American ignition site also gives a very detailed run-down on the coil requirements along with a detailed installation story.
    I have a new Bosch coil in my collection, it gave the same numbers as the original, also Bosch.

    Odin Spares came to the party with the 3mm cap screw missing from my kit and now hear this, their was only one coil spade adapter in the kit! I'm thinking the parts picker [pheasant plucker] could only count to one.

    Off topic. Today I experienced for the first time being treated as a child or some feeble minded aged P as I described my requirements to the counter jockeys. Have to get used to it I suppose.

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    you need to check that the primary resistance in the coil exceeds 3 ohms or something like that or you'll burn out the Hall Effect gear.
    Why would the hall effect sensor be switching the coil directly? There would be a transistor etc. to do that job. A lower primary coil resistance would increase the current, not higher. Old points type coils were typically around 3 ohms. More modern '80's type coils around 1.5 ohms and most recently down to just 0.4 ohms.

    When I used to run Siemens hall effect sensors, I always ran a current limiting 100ohm resistor in series with the +ve supply. Not sure if that would apply in this case however.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  22. #22
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Johnno,
    Yes the American ignition site also gives a very detailed run-down on the coil requirements along with a detailed installation story.
    I have a new Bosch coil in my collection, it gave the same numbers as the original, also Bosch.

    Odin Spares came to the party with the 3mm cap screw missing from my kit and now hear this, their was only one coil spade adapter in the kit! I'm thinking the parts picker [pheasant plucker] could only count to one.

    Off topic. Today I experienced for the first time being treated as a child or some feeble minded aged P as I described my requirements to the counter jockeys. Have to get used to it I suppose.
    So first half of the message is good. You can fit it.

    Middle bit - nuisance but not that unusual.

    Last bit - bloody hell! I have sort of similar stories - the latest when I needed to do an oil change in the R8 when in Adelaide on the way home recently. Hard to find a service place to help as I couldn't get past receptionists etc wanting to know what make and model and then saying "we don't service them sir." "All I want is to undo a sump plug and do it up again." "What model was that again sir?" You can judge which end of the conversation was simple minded...

    I reckon you'll be pleased with the spark kit. I ran mine for 6 months before doing the big trip recently.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Well John,
    You wouldn't bloody read about it !
    So you wont, not tonight anyway.

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    John,
    Attempted a P M tonight but they don't know you?
    Enough to say that I've had some fun. The magnetic ring supplied doesn't go deep enough on the dist shaft, the rotor only just engaging and sits too proud not allowing the cap to fit.
    E-mail today to my new best friend Simon, reply came back* within the hour advising that I relieve the inside of the magnetic ring, could be some plastic flashing inside is my thinking?
    Will get stuck in to-morrow and you'll be the first to know.

    * "Reply came back". I'm wondering what Banjo P would have made of that in todays world? There wouldn't be any "Thumbnail dipped in tar" messages from Clancy

  25. #25
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    John,
    Attempted a P M tonight but they don't know you?
    Enough to say that I've had some fun. The magnetic ring supplied doesn't go deep enough on the dist shaft, the rotor only just engaging and sits too proud not allowing the cap to fit.
    E-mail today to my new best friend Simon, reply came back* within the hour advising that I relieve the inside of the magnetic ring, could be some plastic flashing inside is my thinking?
    Will get stuck in to-morrow and you'll be the first to know.

    * "Reply came back". I'm wondering what Banjo P would have made of that in todays world? There wouldn't be any "Thumbnail dipped in tar" messages from Clancy
    PM sent to you. Seems to have gone, so now you can "reply".

    I had to file a fraction of a mm off the outside of said magnetic ring as it rubbed lightly on the red bit. Also had to push fairly firmly to get it down the shaft, but it did go.

    "like to take a turn at droving, where the seasons come and go" comes to mind.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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