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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! sideways_505's Avatar
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    Default Mi16 into 505?

    In my never ending quest to find a reliable way to give the 505 some more power without resorting to those sensible Japanese engines. Mi16?

    I know nothing about XU motors so go easy on me.

    What I'm thinking with the Mi16, there's a lot more aftermarket support for XU motors and a lot more general knowledge around compared to the Douvrins (which have next to nothing these days). There seems to be a lot of reliable turbo set ups if I ever chose to go that way too.

    After a fair bit of searching, this is pretty much all I can find.

    Quote Originally Posted by davemcbean View Post
    I've also been told that the 405 engine will bolt up to the RWD BA10 gearbox if you put a 405 bellhousing on it, which apparently only requires one extra hole to be drilled in the bellhousing (all the other holes are the same).
    Is it as simple as that? What is the positioning of the engine mounts like?

    I have access to a Pug powered TATA tray back if that helps anything.

    I'd like to turbo the Douvrin but it's hard enough to get the basic parts to rebuild the engine, let alone anything performance orientated. There's such little knowledge about it's capabilities, every turbo'd one I've heard of has blown a head gasket too.

    Thanks

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    Hayden
    1985 S2 505 GTi. Someone please sell me an S2 drivers side front 1/4 panel so I can get this on the road again.
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    Do a search i think wev been down this road before what about a v6. Pugs.

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    A leaded Douvrin with Megasquirt and decent exhaust gives 80kw at the wheels the local detuned MI16 gives the same (this has been born out with various Mi16 and Douvrin dyno tunes I've had done) but with less torque so you are actually going backwards.
    A 405 Mi16 would be a far superior car and buy one for $500.
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by sideways_505 View Post
    In my never ending quest to find a reliable way to give the 505 some more power without resorting to those sensible Japanese engines. Mi16?

    I know nothing about XU motors so go easy on me.

    What I'm thinking with the Mi16, there's a lot more aftermarket support for XU motors and a lot more general knowledge around compared to the Douvrins (which have next to nothing these days). There seems to be a lot of reliable turbo set ups if I ever chose to go that way too.

    After a fair bit of searching, this is pretty much all I can find.



    Is it as simple as that? What is the positioning of the engine mounts like?

    I have access to a Pug powered TATA tray back if that helps anything.

    I'd like to turbo the Douvrin but it's hard enough to get the basic parts to rebuild the engine, let alone anything performance orientated. There's such little knowledge about it's capabilities, every turbo'd one I've heard of has blown a head gasket too.

    Thanks

    Hayden

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    this from an experienced Pug person on precisely this idea:

    "I would be amazed if someone has really put an Mi16 1.9 or 2L engine in a rwd car. XXXX XXXX who is cleverer than the average bear by a long shot, gave up on the idea.

    Think about it a bit. You would have to construct engine mounts that fit to the side of an engine that doesn't have the strong points for the bolts, let alone the threaded holes. Though there are often holes on the rear side (or what would become the rhs) for obvious reasons: ie the lower rear mount to the subframe. Then there's the question of the sump which you would have to make from scratch. Totally different shape for obvious reasons: ie the rwd sump fits down over the crossmember. And the oil pick up from the sump has to be carefully sorted out, so that there's no chance of oil starvation.
    Next comes the bellhousing you'd need to adapt a gearbox to an engine which has never had a production rwd gearbox fitted.
    And it would be going into a heavier car than it came from. Performance loss in proportion to weight gain."

    From me: i like where you are going with this .... what about putting an Mi16 motor in the back of a 505 to drive the rear wheels?
    Last edited by robjer; 12th April 2013 at 10:57 AM. Reason: formatting

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    Upgrade to an SLI or GR motor?
    Peugeot 504 Intercooled T04 Turbo.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Why not use another engine altogether?

    One the compact Jap 3.5 V6 engines which deliver around 200kw as standard would be a good starting point. And extremely fuel efficient to boot.

    I would be no harder than fitting a fwd Pug motor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Why not use another engine altogether?

    One the compact Jap 3.5 V6 engines which deliver around 200kw as standard would be a good starting point. And extremely fuel efficient to boot.

    I would be no harder than fitting a fwd Pug motor.
    I think you're on the right track here.

    While a friend did a conversion on his Mk IV Supra, I did some measurements.... turns out that a 1UZ-FE with CRS bellhousing and W58 gearbox would fit remarkably easily into a 505. In fact, apart from manufacturing engine mounts and adapting the back of the gearbox to suit the torque tube, it would bolt in more easily than it does in the Supra! So that's anwhere from 191kW to 216kW, in completely standard trim, with a vast array of bolt on go-fast bits available, and a bottom end that in standard form is good for 1000hp. They are as reliable as a wood-burning stove, and if driven sedately will be more economical than the standard ZDJL.

    You'd struggle to find better bang for your buck.
    Scotty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    You'd struggle to find better bang for your buck.
    Personally, I think the gm Ls series motors to be better bang for buck. A ls1 has 260kw, (more importantly) 495nm of torque from factory. Massive aftermarket support- Cams. Fitting kits. Stroker kits. Turbo kits. Supercharger kits. Throttlebody kits. Plug and play ecu's. Cheap genuine parts. Etc etc. Lighter. Better gearbox options. Can be had secondhand with gearbox for $1500-$2000.

    If I ever have another 504, I'd definitely be looking at sticking either a Ls2 or rb25/26/30 in for the lols. I would think a Mi16 would not cut the mustard in such a heavy car.
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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James504 View Post
    Personally, I think the gm Ls series motors to be better bang for buck. A ls1 has 260kw, (more importantly) 495nm of torque from factory. Massive aftermarket support- Cams. Fitting kits. Stroker kits. Turbo kits. Supercharger kits. Throttlebody kits. Plug and play ecu's. Cheap genuine parts. Etc etc. Lighter. Better gearbox options. Can be had secondhand with gearbox for $1500-$2000.

    If I ever have another 504, I'd definitely be looking at sticking either a Ls2 or rb25/26/30 in for the lols. I would think a Mi16 would not cut the mustard in such a heavy car.
    There's certainly advantages to both options. But within the confines of a 505 engine bay, none of the standard fitment gearboxes (auto or manual) available in Australia on the LS engines will fit into the trans tunnel... so you'd have to custom up a gearbox adapter to fit a smaller gearbox, or some bodywork to the tunnel.

    Plus even the cheapest LS1 around is still an average of twice the price of a 1UZ. Weight is about the same, despite the 1UZ having four cams and the LS series only having one. Similar level of aftermarket support.

    I still think that 216kW and 400Nm would punt a 505 around quite nicely. And with a rod/stroke ratio of very close to 2:1, it will still happily rev past 6000rpm, whereas the LS1 is limited to about 6000rpm and is pretty asthmatic and rough above about 4500.

    Eitherway it would be a lot more fun than an Mi16 engine - at least in a straight line!
    Scotty

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    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

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    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

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    Fellow Frogger! James504's Avatar
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    There's certainly advantages to both options. But within the confines of a 505 engine bay, none of the standard fitment gearboxes (auto or manual) available in Australia on the LS engines will fit into the trans tunnel... so you'd have to custom up a gearbox adapter to fit a smaller gearbox, or some bodywork to the tunnel.
    Yep the t56 is whuge, the tr6060 is slightly smaller probably still not going to fit even in an auto tunel without adjustments. There are lots of aftermarket boxes (syncro, dogbox, auto, sequential) for the ls motors plus smaller bellhousing. Personally I think a w58 would hold up against a std 1uz, but not much after that. R154 would be what you want +$1500-3000 for a second hand box alone. A new tr6060 is $3k for comparison. But lets be honest, if you were going to attempt this conversion you would want to have the ability to fabricate a new tunel.

    Plus even the cheapest LS1 around is still an average of twice the price of a 1UZ. Weight is about the same, despite the 1UZ having four cams and the LS series only having one. Similar level of aftermarket support.
    I have found the average price for a 1uz is 1000-2000 without a gearbox. Where you can buy a ls with motor and box for 1500-2000. Absolutely dissagree about similar level of aftermarket support. Simplest example, go down to autobahn/supercheap/repco try and buy somthing for a 1uz vs ls1. Also a quick ebay search of ls1 in the automotive section gets 3,053 hits. A seach for 1uz gets 182. Another well known fact is that the ls motors respond very well to even the most basic performance modifications (ie otr and tune.) Whereas I have seen some pretty dissapointing figures from tunned 1uz's. Weight of a dressed ls1 minus trans is 409lbs (according to GM) vs 450lbs for the 1uz (according to the internet).

    I still think that 216kW and 400Nm would punt a 505 around quite nicely. And with a rod/stroke ratio of very close to 2:1, it will still happily rev past 6000rpm, whereas the LS1 is limited to about 6000rpm and is pretty asthmatic and rough above about 4500.
    Absolutely, anything will be better than standard. But why rev past 6 when you are making peak power and torque at 4? Besides that is a generalisation, lots of 7-8-9000rpm ls motors on youtube.

    I honestly want to point out, I have no emotional attachment to either engine. Just that my mechanical nature tells me from the figures that the ls is the better bang for buck motor. Maybe not to everyones taste understandably. I have seen many a forum debate re:ls1 vs 1uz and sooner or later 1950's technology and pushrods get thrown around as an insult, but in my mind its just another way of building an engine. Ducati still uses a desmodromic valve train which was patented in 1896! Funnily enough I have seen the same people who say they would rather a more technological engine with quad cams, call a modern 3cyl direct injection turbo engine 'gay.'

    There was a member from qld on here circa 2005 with a turbo gti motor'd 505 gr(have long since forgoten his name, he was a raafie. Edit- chris/505 to the max). I went for a joyride with him once it went hard and very sideways to say the least. I cant remember the spec, but he spent about 10k fitting the turbo system to this thing. But you could obviously save quite abit if you did the work yourself.
    Last edited by James504; 13th April 2013 at 12:56 AM.
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    Not a popular idea then. I was just testing the waters, obviously it's not as simple as I'd hoped.

    I have looked into LS1s and 1UZs, amoung others.

    From the measurements I took, the LS1 is pretty much to long to fit, but the 1UZ is pretty much perfect as Demannu says. Would be an absolute pain to work on but lets face it, it surely can't be worse than the ZDJL.

    The problem with those engines is that it'd leave me a little cold inside knowing that's what's under the bonnet. Stupid reason but I'm sure you guys understand. Though I think I could live with 200kw.

    But seriously, for the record. Does the 405 to BA10/5 bellhousing trick work? Half my reason for considering this conversion is not having to find a Douvrin bell housing for a BA10/5 or finding a V6 and a gearbox to go with it.
    1985 S2 505 GTi. Someone please sell me an S2 drivers side front 1/4 panel so I can get this on the road again.
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    1980 Suzuki LJ80V.
    1981 Suzuki SJ40 Sierra.
    2000 Suzuki Jimny.

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    There was an rb30 505 on ebay last year. I know for a fact that the ls is much more compact than the rb in length. My mk1 eyeballs always had the ls1 as fitting in a 504 bay- of course not without issues. The ford modular v8 what was another consideration did not.

    What about something crazy like an audi 10v 5cyl, I could get used to my car sounding like this.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ufmWmc97-k
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    Believe me a turbo STi/GTi engine running on gas and a ZF auto will give you all the power you could possibly want.
    I went for a ride in this exact car recently and it flew.
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by James504 View Post
    Yep the t56 is whuge, the tr6060 is slightly smaller probably still not going to fit even in an auto tunel without adjustments. There are lots of aftermarket boxes (syncro, dogbox, auto, sequential) for the ls motors plus smaller bellhousing. Personally I think a w58 would hold up against a std 1uz, but not much after that. R154 would be what you want +$1500-3000 for a second hand box alone. A new tr6060 is $3k for comparison. But lets be honest, if you were going to attempt this conversion you would want to have the ability to fabricate a new tunel.



    I have found the average price for a 1uz is 1000-2000 without a gearbox. Where you can buy a ls with motor and box for 1500-2000. Absolutely dissagree about similar level of aftermarket support. Simplest example, go down to autobahn/supercheap/repco try and buy somthing for a 1uz vs ls1. Also a quick ebay search of ls1 in the automotive section gets 3,053 hits. A seach for 1uz gets 182. Another well known fact is that the ls motors respond very well to even the most basic performance modifications (ie otr and tune.) Whereas I have seen some pretty dissapointing figures from tunned 1uz's. Weight of a dressed ls1 minus trans is 409lbs (according to GM) vs 450lbs for the 1uz (according to the internet).



    Absolutely, anything will be better than standard. But why rev past 6 when you are making peak power and torque at 4? Besides that is a generalisation, lots of 7-8-9000rpm ls motors on youtube.

    I honestly want to point out, I have no emotional attachment to either engine. Just that my mechanical nature tells me from the figures that the ls is the better bang for buck motor. Maybe not to everyones taste understandably. I have seen many a forum debate re:ls1 vs 1uz and sooner or later 1950's technology and pushrods get thrown around as an insult, but in my mind its just another way of building an engine. Ducati still uses a desmodromic valve train which was patented in 1896! Funnily enough I have seen the same people who say they would rather a more technological engine with quad cams, call a modern 3cyl direct injection turbo engine 'gay.'

    There was a member from qld on here circa 2005 with a turbo gti motor'd 505 gr(have long since forgoten his name, he was a raafie. Edit- chris/505 to the max). I went for a joyride with him once it went hard and very sideways to say the least. I cant remember the spec, but he spent about 10k fitting the turbo system to this thing. But you could obviously save quite abit if you did the work yourself.

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    Believe me a turbo STi/GTi engine running on gas and a ZF auto will give you all the power you could possibly want.
    I went for a ride in this exact car recently and it flew.
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by James504 View Post
    Yep the t56 is whuge, the tr6060 is slightly smaller probably still not going to fit even in an auto tunel without adjustments. There are lots of aftermarket boxes (syncro, dogbox, auto, sequential) for the ls motors plus smaller bellhousing. Personally I think a w58 would hold up against a std 1uz, but not much after that. R154 would be what you want +$1500-3000 for a second hand box alone. A new tr6060 is $3k for comparison. But lets be honest, if you were going to attempt this conversion you would want to have the ability to fabricate a new tunel.



    I have found the average price for a 1uz is 1000-2000 without a gearbox. Where you can buy a ls with motor and box for 1500-2000. Absolutely dissagree about similar level of aftermarket support. Simplest example, go down to autobahn/supercheap/repco try and buy somthing for a 1uz vs ls1. Also a quick ebay search of ls1 in the automotive section gets 3,053 hits. A seach for 1uz gets 182. Another well known fact is that the ls motors respond very well to even the most basic performance modifications (ie otr and tune.) Whereas I have seen some pretty dissapointing figures from tunned 1uz's. Weight of a dressed ls1 minus trans is 409lbs (according to GM) vs 450lbs for the 1uz (according to the internet).



    Absolutely, anything will be better than standard. But why rev past 6 when you are making peak power and torque at 4? Besides that is a generalisation, lots of 7-8-9000rpm ls motors on youtube.

    I honestly want to point out, I have no emotional attachment to either engine. Just that my mechanical nature tells me from the figures that the ls is the better bang for buck motor. Maybe not to everyones taste understandably. I have seen many a forum debate re:ls1 vs 1uz and sooner or later 1950's technology and pushrods get thrown around as an insult, but in my mind its just another way of building an engine. Ducati still uses a desmodromic valve train which was patented in 1896! Funnily enough I have seen the same people who say they would rather a more technological engine with quad cams, call a modern 3cyl direct injection turbo engine 'gay.'

    There was a member from qld on here circa 2005 with a turbo gti motor'd 505 gr(have long since forgoten his name, he was a raafie. Edit- chris/505 to the max). I went for a joyride with him once it went hard and very sideways to say the least. I cant remember the spec, but he spent about 10k fitting the turbo system to this thing. But you could obviously save quite abit if you did the work yourself.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Wasn't the original topic about an engine swap?

    So obviously practicality was never a factor and it's self evident that modifying the existing engine will always be cheaper and easier.

    But threads like are always about "what if" and "pie in the sky" alternatives. Ever practical AFers can dream.

    There is at least one 505 going around with a Nissan Turbo in it so an engine change is not impossible.

    FWIW when I mentioned a V6 engine change I specifically had a Toyota all aluminium 2GR-FE engine in mind.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GR_engine#2GR-FE

    These are silky smooth V6 with all mod cons and readily available and deliver a useful 202 kw in standard trim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Wasn't the original topic about an engine swap?

    So obviously practicality was never a factor and it's self evident that modifying the existing engine will always be cheaper and easier.

    But threads like are always about "what if" and "pie in the sky" alternatives. Ever practical AFers can dream.

    There is at least one 505 going around with a Nissan Turbo in it so an engine change is not impossible.

    FWIW when I mentioned a V6 engine change I specifically had a Toyota all aluminium 2GR-FE engine in mind.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GR_engine#2GR-FE

    These are silky smooth V6 with all mod cons and readily available and deliver a useful 202 kw in standard trim.

    How about the Mitsubishi 6G75? 3.8 litre V6, compact unit and readily available in Australia in RWD configuration...
    Scotty

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    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

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    When do you have enough power?

    Yes, being RWD config is good point. I just don't like Mitsu as a general rule.

    The 2GR-FE only weights 163 kg. I'd think you could mix and match enough to find a RWD flywheel and gearbox that fits. Toyota tend to standardize in order to mix and match engines.

    What does a OHC 4 cyl duuvrin weigh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    When do you have enough power?
    Dont know if that was rhetorical or not, but my measure of enough on a road car is, when you can still perform all the speed changes you need/want to, under any circumstances you may meet.
    Thats at least how I measure my finishing point as to engine mods.
    Its all very much related to speed, as the gearbox can modify the torque to the wheels at lower speeds.
    If the car pull up all but the steepest hills in 5th gear, thats enough for me.

    One good thing about doing up a douvrin motor is its a steep learning curve, and you end up learning a stack in the procces.
    Sometimes I curse and swear when i cant get parts, but i always get the parts in the end, even if it means machining something to fit a standard seal or simply doing it another way like with the pesky sump gaskets.

    There are a number of slightly to heavily warmed up douvrins around AF, would be interesting to see the dyno specs.
    Jo

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    There was a 604 fitted with a holden v6 and auto ,up our way ,the rear housing or the gearbox was cut and shut with the pugs so it mated up to the torque tube ,may still be in the shed at mullum ,i note that its a long long way from were you are ,it was on the road locally for a long time

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    I got 88kw at the wheels from a stroked Douvrin, 2318 cc with Megasquirt and cam.
    I have indeed now sold the car and the 203 rally car is also gone so can concentrate on making the 205 reliable and fast.

    If you want a car with one of these modern engines just buy the car it is fitted to originally, anything of this nature you do in your backyard is bound to be unsatisfactory compared to a factory fitment.

    Graham


    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Dont know if that was rhetorical or not, but my measure of enough on a road car is, when you can still perform all the speed changes you need/want to, under any circumstances you may meet.
    Thats at least how I measure my finishing point as to engine mods.
    Its all very much related to speed, as the gearbox can modify the torque to the wheels at lower speeds.
    If the car pull up all but the steepest hills in 5th gear, thats enough for me.

    One good thing about doing up a douvrin motor is its a steep learning curve, and you end up learning a stack in the procces.
    Sometimes I curse and swear when i cant get parts, but i always get the parts in the end, even if it means machining something to fit a standard seal or simply doing it another way like with the pesky sump gaskets.

    There are a number of slightly to heavily warmed up douvrins around AF, would be interesting to see the dyno specs.
    Jo

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    I got 88kw at the wheels from a stroked Douvrin, 2318 cc with Megasquirt and cam. ....
    Graham
    With how many thousand of dollars spent and time expended? Bearing in mind you built the megasquirt and invoked a few "favors" from contacts to have the engine modified. It's still a lump and old style design. (not saying it wasn't good for it's time..)

    200kw at the flywheel will give a very different result to 88kw atw.

    The chassis dynamics of 505 makes it well capable of handling the additional power. The BA series gearboxes are primitive compare to most Jap gear boxes, your upgrade didn't include gearbox as well.

    I still see a decent Jap v6 transplant as viable option. You will even improve the fuel efficiency.

    I don't favor the holden transplant because engine is too heavy and agricultural in design. The autos are very average.

    Modern Toyota V6 engines are silky smooth. Drive a Camry V6 and find out. You need to overlook the driving dynamics but for an "appliance" you can/may forgive that as well.
    Last edited by robmac; 13th April 2013 at 12:49 PM.

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    Too much which is why I sold it and cut my losses, substantial, but I got carried away with the idea of building an outback rally 505.
    I am getting another 505, auto GR as a workhorse, this is what 505s are great at.
    I am not at all sentimental about Peugeots except for the 03s.
    If you want a Camry V6 then go and buy a Camry, it will have better driving dynamics than a home modified 505.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Too much which is why I sold it and cut my losses, substantial, but I got carried away with the idea of building an outback rally 505.
    I am getting another 505, auto GR as a workhorse, this is what 505s are great at.
    I am not at all sentimental about Peugeots except for the 03s.
    If you want a Camry V6 then go and buy a Camry, it will have better driving dynamics than a home modified 505.
    Graham
    Hey, no need to have a dummy spit

    We are talking hypotheticals.

    It's not a question of buying or driving a Camry it a question of what can be done and what would be the best donor engine for a 505.

    I'm apologize if I've offended.

  24. #24
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    Sideways',
    Who have you lined up locally to do this type of job however hypothetical?
    I seem to recall you had some difficulty in finding a local shop in the past to carry out some rudimentary task?

    Dust down "Ruby" finish her off then enjoy.

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    I didn't think I spat the dummy.
    Basically I look at things in a practical way and I guess this discussion is just doodling and will never happen whereas I like to get a usuable result. OK I've wasted a lot of time building and selling projects over the years but the people who have bought these cars have had a lot of fun with them in motorsport.
    Graham
    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Hey, no need to have a dummy spit

    We are talking hypotheticals.

    It's not a question of buying or driving a Camry it a question of what can be done and what would be the best donor engine for a 505.

    I'm apologize if I've offended.

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