Brake Pad Upgrade
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
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    Default Brake Pad Upgrade

    Looking for a better set of front pads for my 405. Pagid & Endless are beyond the current budget, so the other realistic options seem to be either Mintex 1144 or Ferodo DS2500. It's fitted with 406 brakes, so a similar pad to a GTi6.

    Any first hand experience with either of these?

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    405 Mi16 2.2 litre race car for sale.
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    Lap times- Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205 Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
    1972 Renault 4 Guernsey, Channel Islands

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Brett's Avatar
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    I've only had DS2500 on standard Mi16 brakes and on a 206.
    They required warming up on 405 to get satisfactory stopping power.
    Fine on a 206.
    Only comparison I can give is that they fade less than Red Stuff.
    Bathurst______2 57.22 Sandown_____1 35.29 The Bend Int__2 21.96
    Mallala_______1 22.90 Phillip Island__1 56.41 The Bend GT __3.58.12
    Winton_______1.43.90 Collingrove_____38.08


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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
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    Not worried about warming them up first as the car isn't road registered. I'd been using Greens previously which were quite good, but from what I've read the Mintex & Ferodos should be better. I'll be using Greens on the rear. Reds seem to get mixed opinions.
    405 Mi16 2.2 litre race car for sale.
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/car...-car-sale.html
    https://www.my105.com/ListingDetails...d/518/id/22164


    Lap times- Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205 Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
    1972 Renault 4 Guernsey, Channel Islands

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Brett's Avatar
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    I'm running green stuff rears as they didn't have any DS2500 available at the time, but I'm running a bias valve to the rears and adjust till I eliminate most of the lock ups.
    Bathurst______2 57.22 Sandown_____1 35.29 The Bend Int__2 21.96
    Mallala_______1 22.90 Phillip Island__1 56.41 The Bend GT __3.58.12
    Winton_______1.43.90 Collingrove_____38.08


    https://www.facebook.com/FrogstompRacing/

    http://www.harlandeng.com.au

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
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    Never had a rear brake lock up. Front yes & ruined an AO32R. $$$$ Ouch!
    405 Mi16 2.2 litre race car for sale.
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/car...-car-sale.html
    https://www.my105.com/ListingDetails...d/518/id/22164


    Lap times- Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205 Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
    1972 Renault 4 Guernsey, Channel Islands

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts N5GTi6's Avatar
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    I had DS2500 in the front of my GTi6. When cold they need a bit more pressure to stop, but once warm they work nicely. About 2-3 proper stops and they were good.

    Cheers

    Justin
    '07 C3 Exclusive
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  7. #7
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    I've been through 2 sets of DS2500 on the front of the 206, managed to get them fading at Sandown and Winton - keep in mind this is at track days where everyone else is doing cool down laps long before me due to brake fade.

    I've now got DS3000, which are much harder, and take a while to warm up, but I can't make them fade yet, must need to drive faster. I wouldn't dream of using them on the street, while the DS2500 were fine, if a little noisy on the street.

    I've been buying them from demon tweeks in the UK, didn't take long to get here.

    In a very related point - don't forget about getting good fluid. The street temperature fluid available commonly at most auto shops is nowhere near as good as a high temp racing fluid. I did a bleed through with a high temp racing fluid, and it made a large difference to pedal feel after repeated stops. Wasn't cheap though ($170 ish per litre, for a castrol fluid).

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback. I haven't made a decision on what pads to use, but the DS3000 do seem to be the better pads for track application.
    I'm still undecided whether to stick with the Lucas calliper/283mm disc x 15" rims combo or go with the Brembo/305mm x 16" set up.

    Going by the Definitive Weights Thread on the 205 drivers site, the Lucas/283 weight is around 11.5-12kgs (no pads) whereas the Brembo/305 come in at 10kgs (no pads). Rims are about the same weight at 10kgs.
    Angus, will definitely be using quality fluid too.
    405 Mi16 2.2 litre race car for sale.
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/car...-car-sale.html
    https://www.my105.com/ListingDetails...d/518/id/22164


    Lap times- Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205 Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
    1972 Renault 4 Guernsey, Channel Islands

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! Bluey's Avatar
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    Changing from the lucas to the brembos will make little to no difference. Unless you are having problems with the sliding calipers, i.e. pad taper or caliper warping, you are wasting money fitting the brembos rather than a better set of pads. Pagids in Gti6 pattern are about $400, Endless and Project Mu $500-600.

    DS2500 aren't particularly easy on rotors.
    DS3000 eat rotors.

    DS2500's with '600 series' glycol based brake fluid (AP, Motul etc) never faded in Brendan Cook's 1200+kg Xsara proddy car.

    The brake fluid speaksgeek is refering to is Castrol SRF/React silicon based brake fluid which is an unneccessary expense in a production based race car unless it's a 1800+ kg falcon or commodore. If mixed with glycol fluid it will coagulate.

  10. #10
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    For what it's worth, the brakes on my 405 are still the same as when i bought it from the wreckers yard. Standard disks and pads. I have only ever got to brake fade once. My brakes will get an upgrade some time soon, but the originals are really well sorted at the outset. i outbrake just about everything else I circulate with at Philip Island, Sandown and Winton. Car indicates 225kph at the bottom end of front straight at Phillip Island, so it is motoring.

    I can tell you that now the car is travelling much faster, there is a lot more brake dust on the wheels at the end of the day.

    Good luck.
    racing 405
    1:59:09 last time at Phillip Island - less than standard Mi16.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
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    No money being wasted with the Brembos as I already have them & the discs so why not use them? What fluid alternative would you suggest if the Castrol SRF is overkill on a 1150 Kg car?
    Thanks.
    405 Mi16 2.2 litre race car for sale.
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/car...-car-sale.html
    https://www.my105.com/ListingDetails...d/518/id/22164


    Lap times- Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205 Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
    1972 Renault 4 Guernsey, Channel Islands

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! CalGTI6's Avatar
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    Jeff,

    Thought I'd throw in my two cents here.
    Put DS2500s on all fours for a sprint round in my GTI6 in Feb at PI.

    Was only hammering them at Honda & MG (as you know, PI is not that hard on brakes when you don't have hp), put they were pulling up very well. One decent drop of the anchors and they seemed good to go.

    Good bite, but still enough feel to reason with your threshold and transition into trail.
    Wear of the pads was not excessive and the rotors seemed unphased after two days of intent.

    Got them for something like $360 (all four) from Howard at Race Brakes in Yarraville. He got them in super quick and seemed like a good operator. Though expect some flack for "mucking around" with Peugeots.. haha.

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! racing405's Avatar
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    Callum, I just had a look at results from the Feb sprint. Really interested in what sort of speed you pull at the bottom of the front straight. I suspect you get your GTi6 going a little faster than I can get the 405 wound up to down there. I'm carrying 3/4/5 from an early GTi BE3 box so i don't quite have the same final drive ration that I should. I carry a little over 8000 RPM before lifting for turn 1. Kinda hijacking the thread, but I would love to know where / how some other front wheel drive pugs make time/speed around PI.

    Same goes for Jeff, I know he's done some laps down there too. I'm sure I need someone to teach me how to drive front wheel drives fast!
    racing 405
    1:59:09 last time at Phillip Island - less than standard Mi16.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
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    Cal, that's a pretty good price for all 4 DS2500's. Competition Friction quoted me $279 for the fronts delivered (ex Syd) & $349 for DS3000.

    Last time I was at P.I. my speed at turn 1 on old R spec tyres was 195kph at 7200rpm. If I'd have had some newer rubber my entry speed onto the straight would have been higher & probably more speed prior to turn 1. Don't know what the cd of a 405 is since it's shaped like a brick but would think a 306 would be a lot more slippery & faster.
    405 Mi16 2.2 litre race car for sale.
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/car...-car-sale.html
    https://www.my105.com/ListingDetails...d/518/id/22164


    Lap times- Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205 Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
    1972 Renault 4 Guernsey, Channel Islands

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! racing405's Avatar
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    Sorry to highjack your thread, but at 195kph, my 405 brick has you covered!!! I wouldn't want to drive it on the road mind you, I don't think the engine is suitable for 200,000km like your 306 will be. I've cracked the 2 minute mark, but I'm sure the car is capable of more than i can get out of it. Brakes are the next upgrade for my car too. They don't fade, but they are giving everything they've got at Honda and MG. At our local hill climb track, there are 2 corners that require maximum commitment under brakes and there is no spare capacity in the car as it stands. I'll probably go the 406 brembo option shortly, but am considering a pad upgrade in the short term to see how they fare. Any experience with 405s and performance pads?
    racing 405
    1:59:09 last time at Phillip Island - less than standard Mi16.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    DS2500 aren't particularly easy on rotors.
    DS3000 eat rotors.

    DS2500's with '600 series' glycol based brake fluid (AP, Motul etc) never faded in Brendan Cook's 1200+kg Xsara proddy car.

    The brake fluid speaksgeek is refering to is Castrol SRF/React silicon based brake fluid which is an unneccessary expense in a production based race car unless it's a 1800+ kg falcon or commodore. If mixed with glycol fluid it will coagulate.
    I just checked the bottle. It is Castrol SRF Racing Dot 4 fluid. Dot 4 is compatible with most systems - you're thinking of Dot 5 silicon based fluids (not 5.1, which is also generally compatible). Advise given to me (by porsche race mechanic brother) is that good fluid, bled regularly is step one. Good pads is next. All other upgrades as money allows.

    I'm personally surprised by all the comments on standard brakes being fine, my own experience is that the DS2500's will keep braking well, but tend to get a pretty soft, and long pedal feel towards the end of the pad life. I found it very disconcerting having to push my foot so far into the firewall to get results that were previously much, much further up the pedal. Hence I switched to the DS3000, which I found much firmer and bitey overall.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
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    405 Mi16 2.2 litre race car for sale.
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/car...-car-sale.html
    https://www.my105.com/ListingDetails...d/518/id/22164


    Lap times- Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205 Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
    1972 Renault 4 Guernsey, Channel Islands

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! Bluey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speaksgeek View Post
    I just checked the bottle. It is Castrol SRF Racing Dot 4 fluid. Dot 4 is compatible with most systems - you're thinking of Dot 5 silicon based fluids (not 5.1, which is also generally compatible). Advise given to me (by porsche race mechanic brother) is that good fluid, bled regularly is step one. Good pads is next. All other upgrades as money allows.

    I'm personally surprised by all the comments on standard brakes being fine, my own experience is that the DS2500's will keep braking well, but tend to get a pretty soft, and long pedal feel towards the end of the pad life. I found it very disconcerting having to push my foot so far into the firewall to get results that were previously much, much further up the pedal. Hence I switched to the DS3000, which I found much firmer and bitey overall.
    SRF has silicon in it. It's in the Technical Data Sheet and is the reason it has an advantage over other fluids.

    Castrol might advertise it as being miscible with other fluids but in actual use, mixing SRF with traditional fluids causes problems.

    At work when we change a car from “600 series” to SRF, (or the other way round), we strip all the calipers and master cylinders, disconnect the lines and flush them with brakeclean. We even have separate bleeding equipment specifically for SRF.

    Ask the competitors in the Australian Manufacturers Championship if they use SRF and you'll find that only the Falcons, Commodores and one or two of the heavier BMW's do.

    It is an unnecessary expense on a 1150kg club/track day/road car.

    The “600 series” fluids I refer to are AP Racing 600, Motul RBF 600, Brembo etc.
    Sold in 500ml bottles at $30-$40 ea.
    SRF: 1L bottles only $100+ ea.

    Step one of upgrading brakes is not fluid.

    No brake fluid is going to stop standard pads from fading.
    In contrast, if you use high quality pads, (Endless, Project Mu, Pagid, PFC's etc), in a production car that weighs under 1000kg you can get away with regular DOT4. Actual experience.

    The progression for brake upgrades is:

    Pads;
    Fluid;
    Lines;
    Rotors;
    Calipers.

    Towards the end of pad life any pad will feel soft and have a long pedal.
    The reasons include warped backing plates, taper wear, sticking caliper slides and pistons cocking sideways in the caliper. If you weld a spacer onto the backing plate to push the pistons back into the caliper then most of these problems can be eliminated. 3000's have a higher coeff. of friction than the 2500s too.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    I recently changed over to the DS3000 on my BMW 2002tii and am very happy with them. Don't seem to be too hard on the discs and have done 300 track Klms without much wear on discs or pads, although the discs now have a blue haze to their finish. They do bite well once warmed, which is one brake application. On the box they were not recommended for road use, but I find them OK accepting that the first application will be a bit dead.

    I just use any brand of Super Dot 4 fluid, (usually Nulon) and have seen no need to change. I replace it for each track day, but at $8 a bottle it is hardly going to break me.
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
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    I've pretty much decided on the DS3000's and the user experience here seems positive. Still need to decide on which brake system I'll use but leaning towards the Brembo/305mm discs atm. At $265 delivered, they seem a good bang-for-your-buck improvement.

    Thanks everyone for your input.
    405 Mi16 2.2 litre race car for sale.
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/car...-car-sale.html
    https://www.my105.com/ListingDetails...d/518/id/22164


    Lap times- Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205 Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
    1972 Renault 4 Guernsey, Channel Islands

  21. #21
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    You will definitely notice improved pedal feel and stronger initial retardation with the brembo's .... The difference on my 306 compared to the sliding calipers was substantial.....

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