Scrap or fix?
  • Help
Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: Scrap or fix?

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default Scrap or fix?

    205 GTI block, corrosion at the base of #1 liner, punctured the block wall.

    I know this sounds like a good candidate for the scrapper, but I don't think I have a chance to get a better one. This was bought s/h here, so I expect a good chance any other block would be in the same situation and don't really want to buy another one to find it with the same problem. Didn't look too bad before cleaning, but after it was revealed the little pockmarks in the side were a lot deeper under the surface. The extent is not that much, but needs a serious professional job.

    Advertisement


    I guess if anyone knows how to properly weld aluminium and can explain what to ask of the machinist, it might be salvageable.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,569

    Default

    People give away 205 engines in the east. I certainly wouldn't be trying to repair one yet. Any have decent machine shop could cut new seats.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    604

    Default

    I have a 205 SI block you could have when I put my Mi16 in. I am going to pull it out in the next couple of months. Are they identical?
    Current: 406 Coupe, 504 Sedan

    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    They should be. I have an Si engine right here, but not willing to sacrifice.

    Too bad those people giving away the engines on the east coast don't check the blocks before they do. I paid good money for this one here on the forum.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,569

    Default

    When they're worth more as scrap it's hard to justify keeping them.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    A good one with no corrosion must be worth more than scrap value judging by the fact that nobody has found one yet.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  7. #7
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    A good one with no corrosion must be worth more than scrap value judging by the fact that nobody has found one yet.
    You can go chase Citroen BX 19 TZi and TRi blocks by the way. Seem to be the same. If you are stuck I can put you in touch with a man with a dead one near York. Pulling the engine out of the BX is not totally simple (a few hundred hydraulic components in the way) but at least you aren't needing the same care that you would if you were planning to reinstall it.... PM if interested and I'll put you in touch with him.

    And there may be other "dead" BXs around. I have contacts again and maybe there is one closer to you than York.

    Do you know Brian Eyre? He and I pulled the engine out of the other one at York a few months ago.

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    Thank you John.

    The decision has been made to give it a go and I will know soon if the operation has succeded or not.

    A closer examination of the design shows the same flaw of the 807 renault engines which suffer from the same ailment. The far liner probably has pools of coolant lying around the base (flow is from cyl no4 towards no1 and up towards the head. There is no reason for the coolant around no1 liner base to flow anywhere. This made me think that a pipe from the water pump leading directly (around the outside of the bolck) to the base of liner no1 would probably improve flow there. A little closing of the water pump port would probably help direct more flow the other way too. Not sure if this makes sense but if I had all the time in the world I would try it.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  9. #9
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Thank you John.

    The decision has been made to give it a go and I will know soon if the operation has succeded or not.

    A closer examination of the design shows the same flaw of the 807 renault engines which suffer from the same ailment. The far liner probably has pools of coolant lying around the base (flow is from cyl no4 towards no1 and up towards the head. There is no reason for the coolant around no1 liner base to flow anywhere. This made me think that a pipe from the water pump leading directly (around the outside of the bolck) to the base of liner no1 would probably improve flow there. A little closing of the water pump port would probably help direct more flow the other way too. Not sure if this makes sense but if I had all the time in the world I would try it.
    Pleasure. I always suspect lack of sufficient coolant changes with these issues. As soon as sludge forms, it must settle in the lowest part of the block...

    Good luck with the operation. I imagine a few people out there will be interested, as the supplies of these blocks will dry up one day.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,569

    Default

    I stripped an Si motor this week that is an absolute gem in terms of corrosion. It is like brand new inside. Some internals were wrecked due to a piston malfunction, so most things are being scrapped. The head has one bent exhaust valve, but otherwise A1. The block and head may come up for sale in the future. Perfect for anyone wanting an "as new" XU5/XU9J2 block and head. They do exist Shulz!

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts gezza's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Bunbury
    Posts
    2,195

    Default

    Yeah I have one here but its going with my car and its mint :-)

    They are deffo about just need to look :-)

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Pleasure. I always suspect lack of sufficient coolant changes with these issues. As soon as sludge forms, it must settle in the lowest part of the block...

    Good luck with the operation. I imagine a few people out there will be interested, as the supplies of these blocks will dry up one day.

    Yeah, I dunno. Just paid a visit to the welder, looks like he's going to make a hash of it which means I might have to pull the Si engine and have a look at that. I never had any luck with people welding blocks for me.

    As for changing coolant, I am not so sure. I bought once a R17TL which had sat under an orange tree for three years with coolant in it and the block was perfect. The car was a basket case otherwise but still drove very well. Just in case you are not familiar, 807 engine blocks are just as crap corrosion wise. I pulled one out of an R18 and it has the weirdest corrosion I have seen. It had pock marks reminescent of the moon craters everywhere on the walls inside, high above the bottom so no doubt it wasn't because of sludge. The bottom near the liners was still intact. Weird stuff. I guess it's just the casting and the metallurgy not quite right. After all you don't see a Honda block corroded. French crap, I guess.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  13. #13
    COL
    COL is offline
    A110 COL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Van Diemen's Land
    Posts
    4,478

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Yeah, I dunno. Just paid a visit to the welder, looks like he's going to make a hash of it which means I might have to pull the Si engine and have a look at that. I never had any luck with people welding blocks for me.

    As for changing coolant, I am not so sure. I bought once a R17TL which had sat under an orange tree for three years with coolant in it and the block was perfect. The car was a basket case otherwise but still drove very well. Just in case you are not familiar, 807 engine blocks are just as crap corrosion wise. I pulled one out of an R18 and it has the weirdest corrosion I have seen. It had pock marks reminescent of the moon craters everywhere on the walls inside, high above the bottom so no doubt it wasn't because of sludge. The bottom near the liners was still intact. Weird stuff. I guess it's just the casting and the metallurgy not quite right. After all you don't see a Honda block corroded. French crap, I guess.
    It probably depends what the previous owner has added to the coolant. I once added chemiweld as a quick fix and it ended up eating into the liners and made pretty patterns in the liners and also the cooling system.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    You know, Col, I was thinking about the sludge John mentioned and I realised if flow around there would be as powerful as it is out of the pump, there would be no sludge accumulating there. So in a way you may be right, it might be the sludge triggering the corrosion, but then again, good flow would prevent sludge accumulating. Now if I had the time to experiment I would definitely try to run an eternal pipe straight out of the pump at each liner base.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  15. #15
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    You know, Col, I was thinking about the sludge John mentioned and I realised if flow around there would be as powerful as it is out of the pump, there would be no sludge accumulating there. So in a way you may be right, it might be the sludge triggering the corrosion, but then again, good flow would prevent sludge accumulating. Now if I had the time to experiment I would definitely try to run an eternal pipe straight out of the pump at each liner base.
    I'd still ask the question "why any sludge at all"? I reckon if you keep the coolant right you won't get sludge. So reassembled properly, and with good coolant changed at the right intervals, all the issues with water circulation etc go away.

    Now, this is a geological matter really. I'm a geologist. The reality of sediments (i.e. sludge) settling is that the particles settle at a particular water velocity for the particle size. With "sludge" in blocks, which is extremely fine grained, I'd suspect it settles once coolant is not moving or if there are any spots of extraordinarily low coolant flow velocities. It then takes a much higher velocity to remobilise a sediment than the velocity at which it settled. So I really think the issue is avoiding sludge in the first place and it may not matter what you do with pumps and flows etc if sludge formation is occuring.

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  16. #16
    COL
    COL is offline
    A110 COL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Van Diemen's Land
    Posts
    4,478

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    I'd still ask the question "why any sludge at all"? I reckon if you keep the coolant right you won't get sludge. So reassembled properly, and with good coolant changed at the right intervals, all the issues with water circulation etc go away.

    Now, this is a geological matter really. I'm a geologist. The reality of sediments (i.e. sludge) settling is that the particles settle at a particular water velocity for the particle size. With "sludge" in blocks, which is extremely fine grained, I'd suspect it settles once coolant is not moving or if there are any spots of extraordinarily low coolant flow velocities. It then takes a much higher velocity to remobilise a sediment than the velocity at which it settled. So I really think the issue is avoiding sludge in the first place and it may not matter what you do with pumps and flows etc if sludge formation is occuring.

    Cheers
    I think your right there John regards good quality coolant changed at regular intervals will avoid any problems in the cooling system.

    Also most engines spend most of their time stationary, so if people persist in putting quick fix cans of stop leak etc into the cooling system without thinking about the chemical reactions that will happen with the coolant that is being used at the time.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

  17. #17
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    I think your right there John regards good quality coolant changed at regular intervals will avoid any problems in the cooling system.

    Also most engines spend most of their time stationary, so if people persist in putting quick fix cans of stop leak etc into the cooling system without thinking about the chemical reactions that will happen with the coolant that is being used at the time.
    I think so. I've never used any "Chemiweld" or "Bars Leaks" products and carry them on trips in case of dire emergency. Short term fixes at best is my approach, although I concede some/many have used Bars Leaks as a "preventative" for years with no problems.

    And the whole business of which coolants are compatible with one another is a nightmare. Cheaper to buy new stuff than gamble. I use Peugeot's standard pale blue stuff in the 4CV and the current Castrol green stuff in the R8. I'd have the same in both cars but for a bit of confusion on my part!
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    Ha! Another geologist. Nice to meet you. Sedimentologist? Geochemist here.

    I would expect particles the size of those in the sludge would float forever in the slowest of flows (I assume they are about clay size).

    I guess it is to some extent certain that some coolants will produce sludge when mixed or when they break down and so on. There's also unforseeable events (say some oil gets in the coolant) or who knows what. I guess what I am trying to say is that better flow would help mitigate the danger rather than fix anything when it's too late.

    The huge frequency of finding a corroded block rather than a pristine one points to more suspicion. After all nobody showed me their corroded Honda/Toyota block (as I said above). How do you eplain that? Are jap car owners more careful?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts 504-504-504's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Far North Queensland
    Posts
    1,494

    Default

    Sludge in the cooling system doesn't necessarily lodge there permanently.
    Was snigging a log with a hilux diesel 4wd once. The constant rocking back and forward motion stirred up the sludge in the cooling system and ended up blocking the radiator.
    Have often considered fitting a filter into the top radiator hose but never put the thought into action.
    Reverse flushing the system at coolant changeover time could be helpful too.

    Paul.

  20. #20
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Ha! Another geologist. Nice to meet you. Sedimentologist? Geochemist here.

    I would expect particles the size of those in the sludge would float forever in the slowest of flows (I assume they are about clay size).

    I guess it is to some extent certain that some coolants will produce sludge when mixed or when they break down and so on. There's also unforseeable events (say some oil gets in the coolant) or who knows what. I guess what I am trying to say is that better flow would help mitigate the danger rather than fix anything when it's too late.

    The huge frequency of finding a corroded block rather than a pristine one points to more suspicion. After all nobody showed me their corroded Honda/Toyota block (as I said above). How do you eplain that? Are jap car owners more careful?
    Well, well. Hydrogeologist. Clay-sized was what I had in mind too. I think the Jap cars do it too - the word always used to be to take extreme care with secondhand Hondas for this reason. I agree that they are probably (mis)treated just as much. I will ask around.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    I had a Honda which ended up being passed down to my son and then sold after really long term use. It had over 325k km on the clock when sold and absolutely no corrosion problems. The really remarkable thing is it had all its original rubbers under the hood (fuel lines, heater hoses, etc.). True, whilst in my hands it was maintained exemplary, but we got it when it had 100k already and I didn't change the coolant that often (as long as it was green, I left it alone).

    But owning and using french cars had me scavenging pick-a-part joints more often than most and there I had a chance to have a look at all sorts of alloy blocks. Never seen a jap one corroded.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    Just remembered another detail. The block has some corrosion in the water pump housing (not significant) as well which would undermine my theory of lack of flow as the main corrosion promoter. Wrap your minds around that.

    I remember Jo mentioning some time back boiling ensued upon engine stop whilst the fan was running, perhaps initiated at hotspots around the cooling circuit. Frans mentioned cavitation a while back. Not sure if these have any role, but both phenomena surely happen in other engines. Or maybe not?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,569

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Just remembered another detail. The block has some corrosion in the water pump housing (not significant) as well which would undermine my theory of lack of flow as the main corrosion promoter. Wrap your minds around that.
    Electrolysis from the brass impeller on the water pump.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    I remember the impeller was covered with deposits, and it looked like a cast jobbie, not the zinc plated steel one I got in the timing kit. Maybe you're right. Didn't care to clean it to see. I bet the impeller itself would have been corroded under that gunk.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,569

    Default Scrap or fix?

    Aluminium is anodic to brass.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •