S1 Mi16 P/S rack ratio
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
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    Default S1 Mi16 P/S rack ratio

    Is this correct-2.8 turns lock to lock? It's too hot to jack up mine & check!

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    The Xsara VTS one is 2.4 so I might grab one & try to fit the rack & pinion into a 405 housing.
    405 Mi16 2.2 litre race car for sale.
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/car...-car-sale.html
    https://www.my105.com/ListingDetails...d/518/id/22164


    Lap times- Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205 Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    The xsara we got in Australia were actually 2.6 turns lock to lock. The early Phase 1 cars were the 2.4 turn items. Ive fitted one to my 205 and its one of the best mods Ive done to it. If you do get one form the Xsara, make sure you get the lover section of the column to connect it to the rack. Its a square drive as most others I came across were splined.

    Ca.
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    91 205 Si
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by pgti6 View Post
    Is this correct-2.8 turns lock to lock? It's too hot to jack up mine & check!

    The Xsara VTS one is 2.4 so I might grab one & try to fit the rack & pinion into a 405 housing.
    I would think that the rack length itself needs to be same as the 405 or you will get bump steer and/or incorrect geometry.
    Graham

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgti6 View Post
    Is this correct-2.8 turns lock to lock? It's too hot to jack up mine & check!

    The Xsara VTS one is 2.4 so I might grab one & try to fit the rack & pinion into a 405 housing.
    Have you considered measuring mm of rack travel per pinion rotation???

    Jo

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
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    Confirmed-the Mi16 rack is 2.8 turns lock-to-lock.
    Thanks Cam for the tip on the differences between the S1 & 2. A 2.6 is about 7.5% quicker while a 2.4 is around 15% which would be the better one to get.

    Not sure on how they achieved the different ratios Graham. Was hoping they kept the same overall length & adjusted the internal gearing by different pinion teeth/rack gearing.
    405 Mi16 2.2 litre race car for sale.
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/car...-car-sale.html
    https://www.my105.com/ListingDetails...d/518/id/22164


    Lap times- Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205 Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
    1972 Renault 4 Guernsey, Channel Islands

  6. #6
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    Yes, but the length will depend to some extent on the track of the car, I think the 405 and 306/Xsara may be very similar or the same.
    I would not recommend a Xsara rack in a 205 without some measurements.
    Graham


    Quote Originally Posted by pgti6 View Post
    Confirmed-the Mi16 rack is 2.8 turns lock-to-lock.
    Thanks Cam for the tip on the differences between the S1 & 2. A 2.6 is about 7.5% quicker while a 2.4 is around 15% which would be the better one to get.

    Not sure on how they achieved the different ratios Graham. Was hoping they kept the same overall length & adjusted the internal gearing by different pinion teeth/rack gearing.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
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    The 306 & 405 racks mount to the subframe differently, hence why I want to fit it into the 405 rack body. Won't know until I can dismantle a Xsara one 'tho.
    405 Mi16 2.2 litre race car for sale.
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/car...-car-sale.html
    https://www.my105.com/ListingDetails...d/518/id/22164


    Lap times- Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205 Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
    1972 Renault 4 Guernsey, Channel Islands

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Yes, but the length will depend to some extent on the track of the car, I think the 405 and 306/Xsara may be very similar or the same.
    I would not recommend a Xsara rack in a 205 without some measurements.
    Graham
    Whys that graham? The racks themselves are the same length, just the arms are different. Mine is sublime. All I had to do was put the 205 steering arms ( not sure of their name ) onto the xsara rack ( which was a bit of physical effort mind you ) and have it all aligned. Its really really nice. Ive lowered the 205 about 25mm and still have the wishbone angles pointing down. THe next thing to do will be to move the rack up where it would be if it were standard. Ill get to that later though!

    Jeff, the 2.4 racks are pretty hard to find, even in the UK. In the end, i settled for the 2.6. I will eventually get one though! Im sure with some effort someone could find one for you though.

    Cam
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    91 205 Si
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  9. #9
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    If the racks are the same length then that's fine. I guess Peugeot have sorted the geometry out to suit the different track dimensions.
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by cam85 View Post
    Whys that graham? The racks themselves are the same length, just the arms are different. Mine is sublime. All I had to do was put the 205 steering arms ( not sure of their name ) onto the xsara rack ( which was a bit of physical effort mind you ) and have it all aligned. Its really really nice. Ive lowered the 205 about 25mm and still have the wishbone angles pointing down. THe next thing to do will be to move the rack up where it would be if it were standard. Ill get to that later though!

    Jeff, the 2.4 racks are pretty hard to find, even in the UK. In the end, i settled for the 2.6. I will eventually get one though! Im sure with some effort someone could find one for you though.

    Cam

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
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    Good to know that the racks are the same length. That's what I was thinking of doing-use the Xsara innards (rack & pinion) in the 405 body & fit everything outboard of that from the 405.

    Incidentally, what is the lock-to-lock of a std 205?
    405 Mi16 2.2 litre race car for sale.
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/car...-car-sale.html
    https://www.my105.com/ListingDetails...d/518/id/22164


    Lap times- Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205 Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
    1972 Renault 4 Guernsey, Channel Islands

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    I would not recommend a Xsara rack in a 205 without some measurements.
    Graham
    Understatement of the week.

    I naively moved my fuego rack mounts a few mm once (when I was green and didn't know about these things), and it killed the car.
    It took some serious time and energy to learn about steering rack aligning, then make the measurement tools and re align the thing.
    You can spend a whole day aligning a steering rack. It is tedious work, but well worth the effort.

    Cam, how did you manage to pull off the task of mounting the rack in a different position without screwing up the cars ability to corner through bumps ???

    Jo

    PS, some links on bump steer diagnosis and correction

    http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/art.asp?ARTID=13
    http://www.longacreracing.com/instru....asp?instid=15

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    HI Jo,

    Ive not yet moved the rack. When I do so, it will be measured in the arc of the wishbone to make it match to movement of it. up and down. Similar to this thread. Im in the process of working out weather to modify a 306 subframe to fit a 205 shassis, or modify a 205 subframe to take 306 wishbones etc and the rack. When that comes together ill get the measuring equipment out to make it work.

    http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index...105585&page=12

    It looks to be a bloody tedious task but one im sure will be well worth it.

    Cam
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    91 205 Si
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    I have a bump steer gauge if you couldn't be bothered making or buying your own.
    You would be welcome to borrow it, as it is one of those tools you use once and then store for the next decade.
    A custom wheel plate would need to be fabricated as your PCD is not 4x100 like mine.
    My plate is a bit sus anyway, but next time I do an alignment, I'll get an old road wheel and simply bolt a piece of kitchen bench top scrap to it.


    Quote Originally Posted by pgti6 View Post
    Not sure on how they achieved the different ratios Graham. Was hoping they kept the same overall length & adjusted the internal gearing by different pinion teeth/rack gearing.
    I'm being a bit tongue in cheek here, to illustrate a point.

    How do you know they are different ratios??
    2.8 or 2.6 or any other number on its own relating to how many turns of the wheel lock to lock, is not a rack ratio nor even an indication of it without knowing the rack travel distance.

    What if the pinions and rack ratios are identical but the rack has one less gear cut in it at each end to get the lower lock to lock number??
    Wouldn't it be a bummer if you found that out after you did the mod.


    Jo
    Last edited by jo proffi; 8th January 2013 at 10:19 PM.

  14. #14
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    Default A bummer

    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    I have a bump steer gauge if you couldn't be bothered making or buying your own.
    You would be welcome to borrow it, as it is one of those tools you use once and then store for the next decade.
    A custom wheel plate would need to be fabricated as your PCD is not 4x100 like mine.
    My plate is a bit sus anyway, but next time I do an alignment, I'll get an old road wheel and simply bolt a piece of kitchen bench top scrap to it.




    I'm being a bit tongue in cheek here, to illustrate a point.

    How do you know they are different ratios??
    2.8 or 2.6 or any other number on its own relating to how many turns of the wheel lock to lock, is not a rack ratio nor even an indication of it without knowing the rack travel distance.

    What if the pinions and rack ratios are identical but the rack has one less gear cut in it at each end to get the lower lock to lock number??
    Wouldn't it be a bummer if you found that out after you did the mod.


    Jo
    Hi
    Wise words here It would be a bummer !#$%^&*

    Sometimes the racks are basically the same number of teeth with just a spacer or sleeve at the ends to set the travel desired for different models.
    Jaahn

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Good points there Jo,

    They are differently geared though. Same amount of travel with less turns to achieve the distance.

    Ive just changes mine as said and I assure you its very different. I think a standard 205 ( S1/2 )is about 3.8 turns as its not assisted. S3 with assistance is 3.2 and the Xsara is 2.6. You are correct in stating that it is not a ratio. I dont know what the ratio is. I just know they move the same distance with less turns required. It does make it heavier as I am not running power assistance at the moment but will be fitting it shortly.

    Cam
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    91 205 Si
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  16. #16
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    Si is 2.75 just checked then.
    Plenty of lock so not limited in steering degree.
    Seems a waste of time to go any less than this, I agree the unassisted 205 steering is lacking but never had the slightest problem with the PAS.
    Graham

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
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    Ok, I agree that the thread title should have been something like 'S1 Mi16 P/S Rack Lock-to-Lock Question' rather than mention 'ratio'.

    Jo & jaahn, I never suggested that I'd fit a Xsara rack, find nothing has changed & go 'bugger' what a waste of time & money. My intention was to dismantle one to investigate how the lesser turns lock-to-lock was achieved as mentioned in posts 5 & 7 & go (or stop) from there.

    Cam who has done the conversion did make some good points & clarified other issues that were raised.

    Unfortunately, the modification is stalled atm as the rack I had my eye on has been removed from the car & sold!

    So the hunt continues...
    405 Mi16 2.2 litre race car for sale.
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/car...-car-sale.html
    https://www.my105.com/ListingDetails...d/518/id/22164


    Lap times- Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205 Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
    1972 Renault 4 Guernsey, Channel Islands

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Si is 2.75 just checked then.
    Plenty of lock so not limited in steering degree.
    Seems a waste of time to go any less than this, I agree the unassisted 205 steering is lacking but never had the slightest problem with the PAS.
    Graham

    Are you sure Graham? I thought they were the same as the GTi PAS?

    Cam
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    91 205 Si
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by cam85 View Post
    Are you sure Graham? I thought they were the same as the GTi PAS?

    Cam
    I thought that the GTi was 2.75 as well.
    Graham

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    The Gti is 3.2 turns. Early ones are 3.8! Like a bus!

    You should look into getting the Xsara rack into the rally car, it really is a big improvement. Hardly need o move your hands around the wheel.

    Cam
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    91 205 Si
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  21. #21
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    Si is 2.8. A great alternative to a vts rack.
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  22. #22
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    Just looked it up, you're right 3.2!
    This explains why the UK car I put S3 steering into had super light steering, and why some people don't like PAS on GTis.
    Also explains why the Sis steer so well, thought it was just the narrower tyres or the softer front suspension, although these do play a part, the best steering non PAS GTi I drove had undersize 175 60 tyres on it.
    Graham



    Quote Originally Posted by cam85 View Post
    The Gti is 3.2 turns. Early ones are 3.8! Like a bus!

    You should look into getting the Xsara rack into the rally car, it really is a big improvement. Hardly need o move your hands around the wheel.

    Cam

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