Pointsless Ducellier ignition.....
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  1. #1
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

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    I was going to, but I just didn't see the point...


    In all seriousness, I was thinking of it, but I accidently bought a 123 Ignition while attempting to get a postage quote.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Before the big crash an AFer installed the hot spark system.

    It never worked and ended in junk bin.

    His major gripe was the aluminium adaptor stripping the threads and poor accuracy of the hole placement.

    My personal opinion is, the encapsulated block is far too small to house a switching transistor that is capable of handling the coil primary current.

    I've never fitted one and it's all from memory but it seems plausible.

    FWIW Holden Camira distributor innards, complete with inductive trigger system are said to graft-able in Ducellier points type distributors. You need to use the Camira external module and high energy coil.

    The other way would be to make an adaptor and run the Camira distributor as is. (or a later OHC Renault or Peugeot distributor)

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    Hmm! I am trying to keep with the standard Ducellier look so using a foreigner is out.....but the Camira innards might be the go but that still leaves the foreign coil...food for thought anyway.

    Thanks
    Rob
    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

  5. #5
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post

    FWIW Holden Camira distributor innards, complete with inductive trigger system are said to graft-able in Ducellier points type distributors. You need to use the Camira external module and high energy coil.

    The other way would be to make an adaptor and run the Camira distributor as is. (or a later OHC Renault or Peugeot distributor)
    Hi Rob

    Can you elaborate on this a bit more as I have started a similar project and come to a stand still at present with the distributor.
    Regards Col

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    That system seems similar to the Pertronix Ignitor system which has been discussed before. Inside the plastic thingie is a hall sensor not a transistor, Rob. I have used Pertronix's system and it was brilliant. Infinite reliability. I am sure you can get a Pertronix system (they're all the same, just the plate may be different to fit the holes in your dizzy. Get one and never look back. You'll get rid of the capacitor in the deal too.
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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    That system seems similar to the Pertronix Ignitor system which has been discussed before. Inside the plastic thingie is a hall sensor not a transistor, Rob. I have used Pertronix's system and it was brilliant. Infinite reliability. I am sure you can get a Pertronix system (they're all the same, just the plate may be different to fit the holes in your dizzy. Get one and never look back. You'll get rid of the capacitor in the deal too.
    So the hall sensor switches several amps of coil load current? I don't think so!

    The hall sensor is just a small part of the overall picture.

    And of course you are assuming the cheap ebay rip-off is equivalent to the pertronix or are you turning the thread into a pertronix thread?

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    If want originality the 123 Ignition wins hands down. Albeit at a price. But the unit is a drop in replacement, for the Peugeot units anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    If want originality the 123 Ignition wins hands down. Albeit at a price. But the unit is a drop in replacement, for the Peugeot units anyway.
    and with a switchable selection of advance curves too, for inveterate fiddlers..

    still, they are rather expensive (up around $500 i think), so a pertronix at well < half that is pretty good.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    and with a switchable selection of advance curves too, for inveterate fiddlers..

    still, they are rather expensive (up around $500 i think), so a pertronix at well < half that is pretty good.
    It's true that the pertronix are cheaper.

    But factor in work to the original distributor. An advance re-graph (to correct for ULP), a mechanical rebuild of the distributor, a new vacuum bellows, often a new rotor and cap the 123 starts to look attractive.

    I would be surprised if the pertronix had any dwell extension or a microprocessor control of the coil switching which both the 123 and external Bosch modules do have.

    If you use 123 or a Bosch module you can use a high energy coil which makes a big difference to cold starting.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    So the hall sensor switches several amps of coil load current? I don't think so!

    The hall sensor is just a small part of the overall picture.

    And of course you are assuming the cheap ebay rip-off is equivalent to the pertronix or are you turning the thread into a pertronix thread?

    No idea what you're talking about, Rob. Here's the pertronix I installed in my BMW:

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Pertronix...#ht_3116wt_937

    And it's 60 something bucks too.

    Read the explanation in the right bar:

    http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor/default.aspx
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 13th October 2012 at 12:15 AM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    You would if you had a clue about electronics.
    Switching transistors are usually large and need some sort of heat sink.
    Fitting a Hall sensor plus switching transistor and other components into that small package is asking for trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    No idea what you're talking about, Rob. Here's the pertronix I installed in my BMW:

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Pertronix...#ht_3116wt_937

    And it's 60 something bucks too.

    Read the explanation in the right bar:

    http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor/default.aspx

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    You would if you had a clue about electronics.
    Switching transistors are usually large and need some sort of heat sink.
    Fitting a Hall sensor plus switching transistor and other components into that small package is asking for trouble.
    There is a concrete context here, we're not discussing electronics in general and my point was that the Pertronix does the job perfectly and it did so for a long time, so i see no reason to suspect anything wrong. The equivalent system discussed here looks similar and has a similar price hence the proposition that there is nothing suspicious there, contrary to what Rob implied.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    There is a concrete context here, we're not discussing electronics in general and my point was that the Pertronix does the job perfectly and it did so for a long time, so i see no reason to suspect anything wrong. The equivalent system discussed here looks similar and has a similar price hence the proposition that there is nothing suspicious there, contrary to what Rob implied.
    No, not implied, I gave an opinion about the product shown in post#1. Then I stated technical realities in a later post. No more no less.

    The thread has drifted into the discussion of pertronix and has now focuses on "Did you win".

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    No, not implied, I gave an opinion about the product shown in post#1. Then I stated technical realities in a later post. No more no less.

    The thread has drifted into the discussion of pertronix and has now focuses on "Did you win".
    I don't see it that way. You have your experience, I have mine, and my opinion is supported by realities you may not be aware of. I used the comparison between two products because I know about one similar to that looked at by the original poster.

    And I really don't see what is at stake here.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I've spent many hours at Pick and Payless looking through Camiras. Owen W use to do the conversion. Robmac is correct, there are three parts to the system. The hall effect trigger & vane, the Bosch 008 ignition module and the coil. The Bosch 008 module is a highly prized item as it's intelligent. ie it automatically determines the coil saturation time. Thus it really doesn't which coil you use, as long as it's a modern jobbie. Because of this, plenty of other tuners looked for them as well. All is not lost however, as other cars from the mid '80's used the same system eg Volvo.

    Given the Bosch 008 modules were mounted to an aluminium plate (with heat transfer compound). Anything smaller, inside a distributor is going to have a limited life.

    I don't have any shares in the company, but one of the best products on the market is M&W CDI. Sure they're more expensive, but a quality Aussie made product. If you don't mind hiding the box somewhere, you could fire the M&W with points and they'll last a lifetime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    So the hall sensor switches several amps of coil load current? I don't think so!

    The hall sensor is just a small part of the overall picture.

    And of course you are assuming the cheap ebay rip-off is equivalent to the pertronix or are you turning the thread into a pertronix thread?
    Hmm! The HotSpark is not a "cheap Ebay rip-off". It's a legitimate company with a web-site & so forth of its own. Lots of stuff from such companies (including Pertronix) appears on Ebay. As has been noted, there was an earlier thread &, in that thread, mention was made of the Hot Spark. I had been thinking of the PerTronix Ignitor but they won't post to Australia & the local distributor is rather dear. So, as they seemed similar & I had no grounds for thinking one better, I bought the Hot Spark one on price grounds to go in the Ducellier in my 4CV's R5 Alpine motor. My dyno guy fitted it & set it up at the same time as doing the Webers. He remarked that it wasn't a neat fit & that he had to fiddle it a bit to fit in properly. Seems to work fine so far.

    The point of them? Well, obviously stabler timing & one hopes, greater reliability than points & condenser. I've had no problems with other systems I've retrofitted to other vehicles but then they had an external "black box" which might be an advantage & some had optical triggers using "choppers" so they might be no guide.

    cheers! Peter

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    I've spent many hours at Pick and Payless looking through Camiras. Owen W use to do the conversion. Robmac is correct, there are three parts to the system. The hall effect trigger & vane, the Bosch 008 ignition module and the coil. The Bosch 008 module is a highly prized item as it's intelligent. ie it automatically determines the coil saturation time. Thus it really doesn't which coil you use, as long as it's a modern jobbie. Because of this, plenty of other tuners looked for them as well. All is not lost however, as other cars from the mid '80's used the same system eg Volvo.

    Given the Bosch 008 modules were mounted to an aluminium plate (with heat transfer compound). Anything smaller, inside a distributor is going to have a limited life.

    I don't have any shares in the company, but one of the best products on the market is M&W CDI. Sure they're more expensive, but a quality Aussie made product. If you don't mind hiding the box somewhere, you could fire the M&W with points and they'll last a lifetime.

    It is obvious then that we're talking about different things. The Hot Spark item above and the ignitor from Pertronix I mentioned are just what you see in the picture. No other modules, etc. They replace the points and condenser and control the primary of the coil. I didn't pull apart any of those modules, so I have no idea what's inside. I hope everybody is clear now.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 16th October 2012 at 12:57 AM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    just out of interest, PeterJKent had some success converting an electronic distributor out of an early Magna with some success in an R10. The distributor had a mechanical failure a short time later and he abandoned the project. In a mini I had I used firstly a Honda Civic distributor and external ignitor (as I call it); then later a Nissan Pulsar dizzy with internal ignitor. Both worked successfully but had to have minor mods done to the body (to enable clamping) and change the drive dog to suit the A series mini engine. The pulsar dizzy is still a popular mod in mini circles today. It shows it can be done I guess but I've not heard of any later efforts apart from Peter's with the magna dizzy for sierra engines.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    <snip>I would be surprised if the pertronix had any dwell extension <snip>.
    The Ignitor doesn't but the Ignitor II does. Mind you, the latter has a limited list of applications for older distributors. I gather that they are doing one for a range of small old distributors & if it pans out, then it'll be this semester some time that it's released. I must say that, despite the apparent merits of large external black boxes, I found it hard to find any listings much for the 4CV's R5A Ducellier or the Djet's SEV Marchal. Hence me going for full internal ones. (I have no interest in original appearance but this seems to be the marketing motivation.)

    At least if they fry themselves after a while, they're pretty cheap. cheers! Peter

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