Braided lines and ADR rules. + Power Steering lines
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Default Braided lines and ADR rules. + Power Steering lines

    In the near future I want to fit braided lines to the 205. The rubber joins on the front and back are too old and I may as well 'upgrade' so to speak while Im at it.

    Ive heard that they are not legal on a road car. Why not? Or must they be ARD approved and then they are 'legal'. Whats the difference?

    Ive seen them on Ebay UK and can buy them ADR approved for a little extra cash. Can I buy or have some made locally that will be ADR approved and will it save me any time and money?

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    Im wanting to fit power steering to a friends GTi6 conversion in his 205 and without bending the original power steering hoses/pipes ( the OE items that I will surely break ) is there somewhere I can have some hoses made to my requirements? Anybody have any companies they recommend for this? Mainly the high pressure line that runs across the front of the block.

    I can almost make them fit but don't want to ruin anything while trying and am not really keen on spending 30hours chasing bits from 405s etc to make it fit. Plus, it will be nice and neat.

    Maybe others would be interested in this too?


    Cam
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    91 205 Si
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Anyone with a brakequip hose machine can make legal ADR approved braided brake hoses. Most larger brake suppliers hold a stock of fittings and have the machine.

    http://www.brakequip.com.au/braided-hoses


    Enzed, can make hoses to your specs. They can re-use existing fittings and fit replacement hoses if new fittings are unavailable.
    Enzed run a mobile service.
    http://www.enzed.com.au/

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! patpug's Avatar
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    Hey Cam,

    Not sure if you've got this one sorted yet but I got ADR compliant braided lines for the front of my car from Burt's Brakes. They make them up especially but you need to give them your old ones first so they get the length and fittings etc correct. I need to get my rear ones done now...

    http://www.burtbrosautomotive.com.au..._services.html

    Pat
    205 gti-6

    205 track car build in progress http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  4. #4
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    Just a heads-up, custom made ADR compliant braided lines for my 205 cost $650, so you're much better off buying pre-made ADR compliant from the UK if you can.
    1992 205 Si
    Current: shortened diff (4.4), short shifter, group N top mounts, rebuilt engine and box, solid engine mounts, 1.75" exhaust, strut brace, OMP wheel, GTI suspension & subframe front and rear, lowered 30mm front and rear, solid rear bush, Koni yellows, 306 XT front discs and calipers, ADR compliant braided brake lines, 14" rallye wheels, Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Spec tyres, immobiliser

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! patpug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langers View Post
    Just a heads-up, custom made ADR compliant braided lines for my 205 cost $650, so you're much better off buying pre-made ADR compliant from the UK if you can.
    Wow - that's expensive!

    I Paid $160 for the front pair from Burt Bros in Sydney, also custom made and legal.

    Pat
    205 gti-6

    205 track car build in progress http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  6. #6
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    I paid £78-odd for my set, TÜV approved.

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langers View Post
    Just a heads-up, custom made ADR compliant braided lines for my 205 cost $650
    Are they gold plated?????
    I'd be going back and asking the shop to justify that price and possibly correcting the mistake.

    Jo

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    450mm long hose in neoprene cost me around $30 each depending on fittings.

    Braided are said to be 2.5 times the cost as a rough guide say $75 each

    How many hoses does the 205 have say 4 so that's $300 all up, and that's for long hoses too.

    Someone is making too much money.

  9. #9
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    Default Braided lines and ADR rules. + Power Steering lines

    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Are they gold plated?????
    I'd be going back and asking the shop to justify that price and possibly correcting the mistake.

    Jo
    You can tell them - pittwater brake and clutch.
    1992 205 Si
    Current: shortened diff (4.4), short shifter, group N top mounts, rebuilt engine and box, solid engine mounts, 1.75" exhaust, strut brace, OMP wheel, GTI suspension & subframe front and rear, lowered 30mm front and rear, solid rear bush, Koni yellows, 306 XT front discs and calipers, ADR compliant braided brake lines, 14" rallye wheels, Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Spec tyres, immobiliser

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Holly cow, they usually under charge rather than over charge.

    Jo
    Last edited by jo proffi; 18th October 2012 at 09:48 PM. Reason: telling tales out of school

  11. #11
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    just as a matter of interest, what does it mean to say they are ADR compliant braided hoses?
    are these things marked as such, or is it just intrinsic to the way they are made?

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    just as a matter of interest, what does it mean to say they are ADR compliant braided hoses?
    are these things marked as such, or is it just intrinsic to the way they are made?
    I know the brakequip system has approval because the system and individual components are approved.

    Also each hose is individually tested after manufacture to a much higher pressure than the ADR requirement.

  13. #13
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    what i mean to ask is whether an 'ADR approved' item has to merely meet a standard, or has to be identified on itself that it meets a standard?

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    It should carry some form of branding as I understand it, that identifies it respective to documentation.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    It should carry some form of branding as I understand it, that identifies it respective to documentation.
    I believe ADRs specify, manufacturer branding, marking of diameter (to avoid metric/ imperial confusion) I also suspect the longitudinal markers of the hose are to indicate twist or bulging.

    It's possible a marker is slipped over braided lines to comply with the labeling reg.

    I've never used braided lines, but have seen them custom made dozens of times on the counter of my brake supplier.

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    Just a note for awareness on this subject.
    Regardless of having appropriate approval marking on a braided brake line, your typical RWC inspection (in Victoria at least) will probably brind a comment of 'can't pass it with those braided lines on it, they have to be rubber'.

    My experience has been that if they were not factory fitted you will have some issues at RWC time.
    Also it is very unlikely that any imported lines will carry appropriate markings for approval..

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenH View Post
    Just a note for awareness on this subject.
    Regardless of having appropriate approval marking on a braided brake line, your typical RWC inspection (in Victoria at least) will probably brind a comment of 'can't pass it with those braided lines on it, they have to be rubber'.

    My experience has been that if they were not factory fitted you will have some issues at RWC time.
    Also it is very unlikely that any imported lines will carry appropriate markings for approval..
    Quoting from the brakequip website:

    What about liability?
    Every hose is pressure tested to 3000psi. This pressure test procedure is a mandatory part of the Brakequip manufacturing system. The test pressure is twice the maximum operating pressure of any given vehicle. There is also a 'sales agreement' that accompanies every machine and outlines the obligations of both parties.

    Does the hoses comply with legal safety standards?
    YES! All brake hoses manufactured with the Brakequip system comply with Australian & International standards... ADR42/04 FMVSS106.

    How long does it take to make and test a brake hose?
    If the fittings are in stock it takes between two and five minutes. If you are to reuse the old fittings, it can take between 15 and 20 minutes.


    It doesn't matter a rat's what the RWC tester thinks. The hoses comply with the ADR42/04 so they are legal.

    I would not suggest anyone purchase overseas hoses when they are available in Australia, at a similar price and most often done while you wait.

    End of story.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    One Hundred per cent agreement with Rob about "what the tester thinks" If the hoses are compliant with the ADR's then they are legal. Just keep the receipt to prove it! Had waayy too many arguements with people with RWC tickets and CAMS scruitneers over the years, really unless they can prove their opinion then you are right. Many back down very quickly when you pull out paperwork, even got a polite wave from the Victorian Police when I was 'flashed' to pull over and held up an Engineers report that they could see.
    Cheers,
    Brendan

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluey504 View Post
    One Hundred per cent agreement with Rob about "what the tester thinks" If the hoses are compliant with the ADR's then they are legal. Just keep the receipt to prove it! Had waayy too many arguements with people with RWC tickets and CAMS scruitneers over the years, really unless they can prove their opinion then you are right. Many back down very quickly when you pull out paperwork, even got a polite wave from the Victorian Police when I was 'flashed' to pull over and held up an Engineers report that they could see.
    Cheers,
    Brendan

    Here is what Vic Roads have to say to their testers in the newsletter "Testing Times" .


    Excerpt From VIC ROADS “TESTING TIMES #21”

    Braided Flexible Brake Hoses

    Way back in Testing Times 9 we talked about
    braided brake hoses but they were not in
    common use back then. However, they have now
    become much more popular so it is time to
    review the issue.
    Braided flexible brake hoses used to look like
    normal flexible brake hoses covered with
    stainless steel braiding. They were often about
    the same overall diameter as normal flexible
    brake hoses, too. It may have been this overall
    size that made it difficult for them to pass the

    Australian Design Rule (ADR) No 7 whip test.

    The ADR 7 test involves fixing one end of the
    hose and “whipping” the other end many
    thousands of times to simulate typical road use.
    The early braided hoses often could not cope
    with their own mass and stiffness and failed at
    the swaged ends where the flexing was most
    severe. If you look at current braided flexible
    brake hoses you will note that they are
    much smaller in diameter than the
    comparable unbraided hose.
    The new designs addressed flexibility and
    improved the swage system. Consequently,
    there are now many braided flexible brake hoses
    that do not have a problem passing the ADR 7
    whip test.

    However, all the points made in Testing Times 9
    are still valid. Braided flexible brake hoses
    should only be accepted in a roadworthiness
    test if they meet one of the following:
    • they were supplied as original equipment by the vehicle manufacturer;
    • they have the manufacturer’s identification mark (ie trade mark, or trade name);
    • they are on a modified vehicle such as arally car and covered by an engineer’sreportr
    • they are fitted to a pre1970 vehicle (thesevehicles do not have to meet the ADRs).

    The manufacturer’s identification mark should be
    clearly visible. It is often on a snug fitting sleeve
    placed over the hose before the end fittings are
    crimped on.
    The mark may also be stamped into the end
    fittings themselves as below.
    In addition to the above requirements the end
    fittings MUST be a machine swaged type. Self
    assembled or screw together type fittings are not
    acceptable.
    The hose and end fittings should not show any
    sign of leaking or weeping and there should be
    no signs of bulging or displaced braids that could
    indicate internal damage. As the strength of
    these new type braided flexible hoses is largely
    provided by the outer braiding, there should be
    no signs of broken braids or fraying or abrasion
    that could weaken the braiding or any evidence
    of the braiding becoming detached from the
    swaged fittings.
    As many braided flexible brake hoses will have
    been fitted aftermarket it is also very important to
    check that the hose is the correct length for the
    vehicle and does not foul, rub or pull tight
    throughout the whole suspension movement and
    lock to lock of the steering.


    http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rd...mes21219kb.pdf

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluey504 View Post
    One Hundred per cent agreement with Rob.....
    Yep, me too.

    I run non standard tyres, brake lines brake pads, bushings blah blah blah, and they are all perfectly fine and legal.
    IF I was unlucky enough to find a rego tester who had an issue, I'd tell him to shove his version of the rules up his bum and go to a proper tester. Probably not the exact words I'd use, but you get the idea.

    I dont like calling braided SS brake lines simply braided hoses.

    For what its worth, I have not seen a high pressure hose (even my garden hose) that does not have a braided reinforcement.

    Some braided SS hoses you see for other uses apart from brake lines are simply stainless steel covers over a rather average polyester braided hose, and some hoses that look rubber are actualy internaly reinforced with braided stainless steel.
    You know you have one of them when you go to cut the thing and you need to bring out the big guns. Try cutting a digger hydraulic flex line by hand and you'll know what tough is.
    I feel it is an important difference or else you risk being like those bling ricers who think people are impressed by their SS covers on the bogo standard OE hoses.

    Jo

  21. #21
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    That Vicroads newsletter is one of the items quoted to me by a RWC tester last time I sold a car (that was fitted with braided lines).
    You can argue all you like about who is right/wrong, but I just wanted a RWC, so I fitted the original rubber lines and threw the braided lines in the back for the new owner to refit if they wanted to.

    Just because you are right doesn't mean you are going to win

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