You pay for your car or truck/Tractor but your rights?

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Kenfuego

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We have had some previous mentions of this battle and it seems the ownership and rights are still a legal battleground. Note it is John Deere Versus the Farmer owner in who has the ultimate right. This could of course extend to the ordinary owner of even our French Cars, what are your rights as an owner. In this day and age. Bloomberg Article on this vexed legal rights question. In most consumer legislation the rights have been traditionally evolved to the purchaser.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...deere-over-who-gets-to-fix-an-800-000-tractor

Worth a read in a rapidly changing world of commerce and dominance of software.

Ken
 
If you had to read previously a lot of software licence terms instead of just clicking "accept" you would already know that you do not own the software, a situation that has been constantly upheld by courts around the world. Why farmer brown should suddenly think he owns the software running his tractor under that same licence system beats me! :deal:
 
Not a problem if the car has no electronics :)

The other potential concern with modern electronics is the ability of various authorities to download the data from our cars and then ask "why were you pulling 6000 rpm in top gear ?" or suchlike other embarrassing questions, to say nothing of their ability to track us.

The 404 gives a lot of immunity to such shenanigans

Stay safe

Andrew
 
This point has been argued here before. This practice is detrimental to repairs, particularly by non-dealers. It makes life hard for diagnostic instrument firms. It is a hangover from the bad old days of closed source.
 
Which is why I appreciate cars, trucks and tractors without fancy electronics and which came supplied with a thoroughly comprehensive workshop manual and toolkit. And did quite a good job. John Deere are ok on providing basic machinery repair data but their parts system is more complex than it should be and supply of parts not as reliable as it should be. I don't know what will happen when these systems get older. It's expensive enough to do a basic service on a John Deere. Australia isn't the American Mid West and there are long distances between agency workshops.
 
I just bought a cheap John Deere 3130, about 90 horsepower, from the 1970s. Partly because I have owned its little brother, a 2130, for 30 years and know how good it is, and partly becuse there is a bloke in Mortlake, not far away, who knows those tractors inside out. No electronics anywhere in those tractors, but their hydraulic systems are seriously complex and would make a DS owner blush. Fortunately my man in Mortlake knows them well. He is getting on a bit and rarely makes house calls, but he helps with diagnosis over the phone and if I remove the offending part he is happy to fix it.

Roger
 
The point in paying a premium for a Deere is long life, but if there's a stranglehold on service what's the point. Some of those service bills can be steep. A 466 baler left for a major service had a bill of 10k on it (not mine). The hydraulic cylinders of course have unique rubbers and different for left and right, with a three month wait last hay season. With the more complex utes I'm wondering if we're not at the stage of replacing them at end of warranty but we expect longer service from machinery. JD service is good, Wickham Flower the best but they can't cross the border anymore.
 
In reading through the Bloomberg article, I recall sitting in on a meeting years back when there was talk of designing roads with electronic recording devices that would eventually have the capability of also recording vehicle data, and the forward talk was about the prospect of police issuing automatic infringements with the more extreme idea, using the electronics to disable the vehicle, no more pursuits and all in the name of road safety.

All a bit like massive Big Brother surveillance, and at the time a bit pie in the sky technology then. It also required legislation to enable the intrusion into privacy among other considerations ( not really an issue then as it is now)

Since then of course the technology and software is around and talk of autodrive vehicles and the prospect of hacking into software and remote shutdown as mentioned in the Bloomberg article could critically effect farming and commerce.

Ken
 
Kenfuego said:
In reading through the Bloomberg article, I recall sitting in on a meeting years back when there was talk of designing roads with electronic recording devices that would eventually have the capability of also recording vehicle data, and the forward talk was about the prospect of police issuing automatic infringements with the more extreme idea, using the electronics to disable the vehicle, no more pursuits and all in the name of road safety.

All a bit like massive Big Brother surveillance, and at the time a bit pie in the sky technology then. It also required legislation to enable the intrusion into privacy among other considerations ( not really an issue then as it is now)

Since then of course the technology and software is around and talk of autodrive vehicles and the prospect of hacking into software and remote shutdown as mentioned in the Bloomberg article could critically effect farming and commerce.

Ken
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Or course it's always possible to exercise you rights of choice. And to refuse to support manufacturers who won't give assess to the necessary diagnostic equipment and/or software.

Of course that option requires some advance research.

For the record some French vehicles don't seem too well supported by legally obtainable manufacturer supported diagnostic software. ;)
 
I wonder how many years these high tech electronic systems will be supported for? It's normal for tractors and farm machinery to be in service for decades.
 
The Detroit Diesel 60 Series engine was introduced in 1987, over three decades ago. It was the world's first commercial FADEC diesel. FADEC stands for Full Authority Digital Engine Control (or total electronic engine control) and it used a fly by wire throttle as well. Many were sceptical of the electronic control and early on many breakdowns occurred due to faulty connectors, a problem that disappeared after better looms were fitted. It's official reconditioning interval ended up at 1,210,000 kilometres, and as far as I know, many are still plying Australia's roads and tracks.
 
Russell Hall said:
I wonder how many years these high tech electronic systems will be supported for? It's normal for tractors and farm machinery to be in service for decades.
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As long as dealers use the product and non dealers need the software I'd suggest.


Personally I'd prefer use a non manufacturer developed software package(if available).

For the Skoda I use VCDS by Ross tech. https://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/

Te basic version is very affordable, stable , runs on modern 64 bit operating systems and updates on line regularly to include new vehicle models and product enhancements. Installation was very easy and it does everything the advertising claims.
 
robmac said:
As long as dealers use the product and non dealers need the software I'd suggest.
🥴
Personally I'd prefer use a non manufacturer developed software package(if available).
For the Skoda I use VCDS by Ross tech. https://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/
The basic version is very affordable, stable , runs on modern 64 bit operating systems and updates on line regularly to include new vehicle models and product enhancements. Installation was very easy and it does everything the advertising claims.
Click to expand...
Hi Robmac :)
Yes I have had and used Ross Tech diagnostic software. Magic as you say and just works as promised. Even has a OBD2 setting that works OK for basic use on other brands too. I have thought of it when battling the PSA rubbish software in the past. Very affordable free basic download is good ! My mate uses it still on his newish van and it works to reset the silly things new cars have these days.
Sooo who is going to rejigg the rubbish PSA software to make it usable into the future for all !! I guess that there are many more VWs in the States which made it worthwhile for someone to rejig the VW stuff and make money out of it. VW has always had 3rd party English language workshop manuals in the States so possibly they allowed access to the software for reuse. Hmmm :cry:
Jaahn
 
jaahn said:
Hi Robmac :)
Yes I have had and used Ross Tech diagnostic software. Magic as you say and just works as promised. Even has a OBD2 setting that works OK for basic use on other brands too. I have thought of it when battling the PSA rubbish software in the past. Very affordable free basic download is good ! My mate uses it still on his newish van and it works to reset the silly things new cars have these days.
Sooo who is going to rejigg the rubbish PSA software to make it usable into the future for all !! I guess that there are many more VWs in the States which made it worthwhile for someone to rejig the VW stuff and make money out of it. VW has always had 3rd party English language workshop manuals in the States so possibly they allowed access to the software for reuse. Hmmm :cry:
Jaahn
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Several groups are working on downloading and studying car computers. I have a how-to written by one group somewhere. I don't think anyone has been game to publish in full for fear of bloodthirsty litigation. It might have once shown up on Usenet, but that is now largely dead for non-encrypted postings.

Some commercialise their work as OBD diagnostic software, though, eg, for PSA cars - http://www.obdtester.com/psacom
or

Professional Peugeot/Citroen Diagnostic Software for PC

www.auto-diagnostics.info

More general - http://www.obdtester.com/pyobd is free. Download Python tar or deb here - http://www.obdtester.com/pyobd-download

There are others.
 
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Writing diagnostic software is major task. So anyone undertaking the task presumably would expect a large number of sales. Which in turn results from a large number of vehicle sales. driving a high demand.

I guess PSA has the sales worldwide to justify custom "writing" of diagnostic software, but may be the information required to do so is not available.

Ross Tech's owner, as I understand was involved with VAG's software development in a earlier life.And his diagnostic software has been around for 20 years odd.
 
You can often get something very good for nothing in software.

The excellent VAG software is not available equivalent for most makes.

PSA owners have to scrounge things that fell off trucks, or get involved with lesser or incomplete projects. The official software is crude, and sorely in need of a rewrite.

Paid VAG-COM fell off a truck too. I don't suggest you want or need one. But these under the counter ways of fixing cars has to end.
 
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seasink said:
You can often get something very good for nothing in software.

The excellent VAG software is not available equivalent for most makes.

PSA owners have to scrounge things that fell off trucks, or get involved with lesser or incomplete projects. The official software is crude, and sorely in need of a rewrite.

Paid VAG-COM fell off a truck too. I don't suggest you want or need one. But these under the counter ways of fixing cars has to end.
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I guess it all depends on your intentions , or possibly the lack of them to subsidize the software writers who don't provide their products as "freeware" and for a good product IMO are fully entitled to their fee. :eek:
 
Considering that many dealers charge $180+ for diagnosing or deleting codes (e.g. service codes) a few 100 $ is going to amortize relatively. quickly. Our local independent charges $80 or 85 for diagnostic but is willing to scratch the charge if he gets the work.
Don't think the plain code readers are much chop on late model cars?
 
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