Wiper motor gear

[notafroggyman]

Hi All, back again, I have managed to source a motor as I could not find a gear. A genuine motor was going o be $1k so I found something that would fit the mounts and it does a pretty good job of that for a lot less$$$. I have finally found time to install it and with a bit of flexing I have the new motor installed. The new wiper motor is a 5 pin and the old motor was a 4 pin. I believe the difference is that the 5 pin has a separate park circuit for low and high speed where a 4 pin has one circuit for the park.

I have figured out the low and high speed on the old motor
black=earth,
green & yellow = high speed +ve
yellow = low speed +ve
red = unknown

and new motor
black = earth
blue = high speed +ve
white = low speed +ve
red = unknown
yellow = unknown

I have tried wiring up with the known match of earth, low and high speed but it doesn't seem to work as expected

Where I'm stuck is that I can't figure out the auto park for the wipers to get them to stop in the lowest position. I suspect once this is in place everything will work as required.

I have also included an image of the top of the new motor showing the red and yellow wires connecting to the top plate of the gear in case that helps.

With the three wires connected (earth, low and high speed) the motor currently engages and does a few swipes, turns off and then waits for 20 is seconds and then does a few more swipes and repeats.

Any ideas on how to progress greatly appreciated.

 

[simca1100]

Koleoses are Korean, aren't they? So would some Kia or Hyundai part fit?
Is there a manufacturer's brand name or part number on it?

Wow, $1000 for a wiper motor. Outrageous. And they wonder why sales are collapsing?

 

[schlitzaugen]

What car is the new motor from?

Regardless.

I don't think the black wire in the new motor is ground, because it doesn't seem to go in the motor. I think this motor takes ground from the chassis. This is based on the impression that only the blue and white wires go in the motor but nothing else. If this assumption is wrong, then I am wrong. You can test to see if the motor takes ground from the chassis by connecting either blue or white to +12V and the motor body to the chassis.

Red and yellow wires are obviously meant to park the wipers on high speed/low speed through the dash switch.

The car plug wiring.

I would hazard a guess the original motor was also grounded through the chassis hence the black is not earth here either.

The other wires can be tested by measuring at the car's plug with the switch in different positions. See which wire is energised at what switch position.

Parking in a different position may have to do with the internal clocking of the switch. You might have to change the position of the wipers to get it right.

What you have found right now I think is the intermittent function (controlled through the dash switch). Repeat what you have done and adjust interval at the switch. If it does adjust, bingo. If not, I dunno.

If all else fails, you can just open the motors and see exactly what each wire does. That might also help decide if you could just swap the gear that's broken in yours.

 

[simca1100]

Hi notafroggyman.

I'm happy to go over this with you if you like - send me a PM and I can give you my phone number.
There is a bit to understand here.
I'm not an auto elec or mechanic but I can understand wiper motors. I have monkeyed with them a bit in the past.
A wiring diagram for your car would be a big help.
A multimeter is your friend.
Here's an idea or 2 for you...
You should understand how the park circuit works. When you turn on the wipers (slow or fast), the park circuit is NOT involved. When you move the switch back to OFF position, the switch turns ON the park circuit. Power now goes to the motor via the park switch, which is the 3 black-yellow-red wires in your new motor photo. If the wipers are NOT in park position, the park switch provides power to the motor (slow speed only) until the wipers are back to park position. Then 2 things happen: first, power is disconnected to the motor, and the unexpected one, the slow speed wire of the motor is shorted to earth. (possibly via a wire, possibly to the body of the wiper motor.) This gives electric braking, shorting the motor wires makes the motor stop dead exactly in position, without this feature the wipers may drift up a bit past the park position, due to inertia.

Intermittent wipers just provide a tiny pulse of power to the motor to get the wipers up out of the park position, then turn off again, where the park circuit will provide power long enough to bring them back to park position again.

(As a useless aside, Lada Nivas used to NOT short the motor at park position when on intermittent. The wipers would bounce an inch or two up past park position, then stop there until the next pulse for the next intermittent sweep. They would only park properly when turned off. This was modified for cars imported to Australia, a Bosch intermittent wiper control was fitted behind the glovebox and the original Russian one was left in place but disconnected.)

There won't be a separate park for fast speed. Parking is always at slow speed.
My guess is the extra mystery wire is something to do with shorting the motor at park position.
Note that in this park position, the MOTOR is shorted to earth, but no power is being fed to the motor, so no power is consumed and no fuse blows.
This works because the little 12 volt motors used in wiper motors also function as a generator - put 12 volts to the motor, it turns. Disconnect the motor from power and rotate the shaft, it will produce a voltage at the wires. If you short these wires together, the motor brakes and becomes very difficult to turn, providing a clever, simple way to ensure the motor stops reliably in exactly the same position.

 

[notafroggyman]

hi All thanks for the help and suggestions, I will try it out over the next day or so. I purchased the motor through Motion Dynamics https://www.motiondynamics.com.au/worm-drive-motor-12v-100w-30-55-rpm-8-50nm-torque-right-angle.html there is some basic wiring defined on the site. I had this wired to an old battery before install try and confirm the wiring. I did black and blue/white to confirm the low/high speed and it seemed to work. I did the same on the old motor and the same seemed to work as well. both motors also worked when unit extirior was attached to earth and only blue white was attached to +VE. I will reach out to motion dynamics tomorrow to see if they can provide more detail on the red/yellow wires.

I wish it were as easy as pulling the internal gear out and replacing mine but when you get into "the search" for wiper motors there re so many variataions its insane. You would think this is a fairly standardised part across a range for each manufacturer but not from what I could tell with the renault. The many hours I have killed tryng to source a spare, everthing from spacing and height of mountig points, size of the centre spline, number of teeth on the worm gear..... the list goes on. this is a common fault for the koleos sono wrecker has them either. The new motor is nearly twice the size as the old one so incompatable for a switchout. I fitted the motor on the weekend and I had to do some bendig/bashing on the sound/heat shield above the firewall to get it to fit and it's still pretty tight.

I will keep you posted with updates!!

 

[schlitzaugen]

Wow. You should have gone with the Prius motor as I recommended. It's 2cm smaller in the body diameter and mounting posts length and about 5cm shorter. And it sure as hell doesn't weigh 3.7 kilos! Still a five wire motor.

 

[notafroggyman]

Wow. You should have gone with the Prius motor as I recommended. It's 2cm smaller in the body diameter and mounting posts length and about 5cm shorter. And it sure as hell doesn't weigh 3.7 kilos! Still a five wire motor.

I did take a look, I was more focused on getting something that would mount without too much modificaiton due to the alignment and may have overlooked the size of the thing. also Lots of motors looked right but without specs and measurements it was pretty hard to judge.\

 

[notafroggyman]

I just realiesed I missed a fairly vital piece of info in my post with the new motor. where I indicated "With the three wires connected (earth, low and high speed) the motor currently engages and does a few swipes, turns off and then waits for 20 is seconds and then does a few more swipes and repeats." this was happening with the igntion off.

Also the supplier came back and said they don have any further info other than black withe and blue wires. I assume black is simply ground in a 5 pin. I was thinking of just having a crack at the park circuit, as it's all +ve (blue, white, yellow, red) and using the chassis as ground.

this is a good video to describe the park circuit for anyone interested.

planned steps
1) Check to see if one of the 5 wires on new motor is ground based on contuniuty with motor chassis/body
2) Poke around with the multi meter to get accurate read on high/low on the vehicle side
3) wire high low appropriately between old and new motor (I will use motor chassis for ground if confirmed in step 1)
4) try the park circuit randomly and swap the ends if it doesnt work.

I'm not great with electrical, just want to make sure I wont blow anything up/create a bigger problem for myself.

 

[schlitzaugen]

You can just run the tests on the vehicle terminals and replicate on a bench stand (separately) with the motor see what happens. Make sure you take measurements between all the car terminals at every switch position because you may have more than one circuit opening/closing when you move the switch around. Check relation to ground (car chassis) as well to make sure you catch any floating ground shift.

Alternatively, you could rig up relays between motor and car wiring with separate power source for the motor so you have two completely isolated circuits and you don't destroy anything.

 

[aegis]

Plus tail gate catches. We can't keep up with those either.
Oh and rear diffs and driveshafts on the 4wd models

Hi there. This is off topic for this thread on wipers; but being a newbie here and mostly a lurker, I'm not sure where to ask the question, so pls forgive this diversion.
David Cavanagh said: "rear diffs and driveshafts on the 4wd models" are also problematic on the Koleos. As the owner of a MFY 2019 Koleos - diesel; intens, purchased in Feb 2020, new, and with only 14000km on the clock (thanks, Covid), this comment set my heart racing, for the wrong reason.
I have used the lock function twice when I foolishly drove through much mud. But it just bounced the Koli out, no problems.
Can you tell me what to look for if the rear dif/drive shaft is failing?
That leads to my next question. When the borders open I'm planning on some long drives, to WA , up north, and possibly later into FN Qld. Graded dirt roads, I think, will be OK. I'm considering changing the tyres. But any other tips re: prep for the car, apart from a service etc. Or is it a bad idea taking it to remote area? I'm not planning any 4WD.
I'm considering fitting a tow bar so I can add a spare tyre and jerrycan holder.
Previously I owned a Cit 2008 C4, diesel from new. She never gave a day's trouble and I miss her still. The giant hail storm in early 2020 took her out. [Sighs and laments]

 

[Kim Luck]

good point, I got too focused on the measurements. The burr can be seen best in this image

https://imgur.com/gEzckuL

the burr itself is directly facing the camera in that shot. the edge is no longer flat but concave meaning the grub screw cannot engage the gear.

You can see where the gear has been chewed up a bit and some bits of white plastic 'dust' stuck to the old lubricant in this image

https://imgur.com/RW4fDKn

let me know if you want me to grab a better image.

The plastic gear doesn't look centred on the worm drive.

 

[Kim Luck]

Hi there. This is off topic for this thread on wipers; but being a newbie here and mostly a lurker, I'm not sure where to ask the question, so pls forgive this diversion.
David Cavanagh said: "rear diffs and driveshafts on the 4wd models" are also problematic on the Koleos. As the owner of a MFY 2019 Koleos - diesel; intens, purchased in Feb 2020, new, and with only 14000km on the clock (thanks, Covid), this comment set my heart racing, for the wrong reason.
I have used the lock function twice when I foolishly drove through much mud. But it just bounced the Koli out, no problems.
Can you tell me what to look for if the rear dif/drive shaft is failing?
That leads to my next question. When the borders open I'm planning on some long drives, to WA , up north, and possibly later into FN Qld. Graded dirt roads, I think, will be OK. I'm considering changing the tyres. But any other tips re: prep for the car, apart from a service etc. Or is it a bad idea taking it to remote area? I'm not planning any 4WD.
I'm considering fitting a tow bar so I can add a spare tyre and jerrycan holder.
Previously I owned a Cit 2008 C4, diesel from new. She never gave a day's trouble and I miss her still. The giant hail storm in early 2020 took her out. [Sighs and laments]

Whilst David suggests that rear diff failure is a common problem in Kolei I would be inclined to suggest that is not the case from personal experience. As the parts are "supposedly" identical with the X-trail I suggest that is where they are mainly required. My winter trips to the Victorian High Country are frequent during the snow season and my car is often in locked 4WD mode for hours at a time, all with no apparent problems. The Koleos 4x4 series are extremely reliable and are unlikely to leave you stranded anywhere in Australia. They went everywhere in Australia before they were released internationally as part of Samsung's testing.. The best tyres I have found are Hankook Dynapro's which have a tread that looks more like a plain road tyre but are marked M&S and really do work in both, as well as lasting 65,000km on the bitumen.

 

[aegis]

Whilst David suggests that rear diff failure is a common problem in Kolei I would be inclined to suggest that is not the case from personal experience. As the parts are "supposedly" identical with the X-trail I suggest that is where they are mainly required. My winter trips to the Victorian High Country are frequent during the snow season and my car is often in locked 4WD mode for hours at a time, all with no apparent problems. The Koleos 4x4 series are extremely reliable and are unlikely to leave you stranded anywhere in Australia. They went everywhere in Australia before they were released internationally as part of Samsung's testing.. The best tyres I have found are Hankook Dynapro's which have a tread that looks more like a plain road tyre but are marked M&S and really do work in both, as well as lasting 65,000km on the bitumen.

Thanks heaps, Kim, for the advice and comments, particularly regarding the tyres.

 

[David Cavanagh]

Thanks heaps, Kim, for the advice and comments, particularly regarding the tyres.

Make sure you get the diff oil changed about every 3rd oil change and inspect the driveshaft boots.
Koleos rear diffs is one of our biggest selling items and we get calls on them every week so they are definitely a week spot regardless of what Kim says.
Even when we buy damaged cars at the auctions a 4x4 will sell for much more money than a 2wd because the diffs are a good money spinner for us.
My son has a 4wd diesel Koleos and tows his caravan across the country and so far (touch wood) no problems but he does maintain it properly.

 

[Kim Luck]

Make sure you get the diff oil changed about every 3rd oil change and inspect the driveshaft boots.
Koleos rear diffs is one of our biggest selling items and we get calls on them every week so they are definitely a week spot regardless of what Kim says.
Even when we buy damaged cars at the auctions a 4x4 will sell for much more money than a 2wd because the diffs are a good money spinner for us.
My son has a 4wd diesel Koleos and tows his caravan across the country and so far (touch wood) no problems but he does maintain it properly.

I still find it hard to believe there are not wreckers yards full of damaged Koleos with stuffed rear diffs if they are such a weak point on the vehicle. In any images I've seen of duff Koleos diffs they always look to have been run dry and cooked. If that is the case generally, it is not a design problem, but one of inspection and slack servicing.

 

[aegis]

David, Kim, Thanks heaps for your comments. I have my Koli, like my Cit, serviced every year or when the kms click up, however, covid has put a bit of a lid on that. I'll make sure the service centre checks the dif this next service, which is jan-feb
Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

 

[cav91]

I still find it hard to believe there are not wreckers yards full of damaged Koleos with stuffed rear diffs if they are such a weak point on the vehicle. In any images I've seen of duff Koleos diffs they always look to have been run dry and cooked. If that is the case generally, it is not a design problem, but one of inspection and slack servicing.

Well to be honest they're still valuable enough that most owners just cop up the money and repair them. I do know of one local car that ended up in a wreckers due to the rear diff.

Other main problem is tyres. They need to be the same and have the same pressure. As said though if looked after properly they're fine. I actually used the 4wd in mine for the first time on the weekend!!!

 

[Kim Luck]

Well to be honest they're still valuable enough that most owners just cop up the money and repair them. I do know of one local car that ended up in a wreckers due to the rear diff.

Other main problem is tyres. They need to be the same and have the same pressure. As said though if looked after properly they're fine. I actually used the 4wd in mine for the first time on the weekend!!!

The tyre pressures front and back for an early model Koleos are NOT specified to be the same....... check the placard on the door pillar!

 

[cav91]

The tyre pressures front and back for an early model Koleos are NOT specified to be the same....... check the placard on the door pillar!

I meant left and right. We're talking about the rear diff, not the transfer case

 

[David Cavanagh]

I still find it hard to believe there are not wreckers yards full of damaged Koleos with stuffed rear diffs if they are such a weak point on the vehicle. In any images I've seen of duff Koleos diffs they always look to have been run dry and cooked. If that is the case generally, it is not a design problem, but one of inspection and slack servicing.

Like I said. Service it. Change oil. When they break they crack their casing. Ask the bloke who got suck between Sydney and Adelaide with a diff in two pieces how difficult they are to find.