What is really necessary?

A

Allen

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Fellow Frogger
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May 24, 2014
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198
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Margaret River Western Australia
A couple of weeks ago, I took the 2011 C5 into Perth City Citroen and had a 110,000km service. At the bottom of the 3 page document there were some recommendations:

Battery charging sensor unit *
RHF top link engine mount snapped
Airdoser needs replacing *
Vacuum pipe needs replacing *
Fuel high pressure pump gasket needs replacing
Coolant flush
Fuel filter change
Fuel injector max service *
induction service *
Throttle position sensor needs replacing *

As I love the vehicle, I am happy to have whatever is necessary to keep it running reliably. But I just wonder about some of the items I've marked * because I have no idea what they do.

ANy thoughts would be welcome.

I notice, by the way, that there is some corrosion around the negative battery terminal which they didn't clean off. Could that be something to do with the "battery charging sensor unit"? The battery is just 3 years old, and is a Century Dual Force which Battery World assured me should last 7 years.

I now notice that the top link engine mount fault was registered in 2020, but not in 2021 or 2022. It was also reported the the rocker cover gasket should be replaced in July 2020, ($872 !!) but has not been noted since. Similarly, it was noted also in February 2020 that the brake rotors had lips and should be replaced. Never been done and not noted even though the car has been serviced every 12 months at around 10,000 km intervals.

Well, it does make me wonder................
 
Hi Allen. I'm not that up to speed with late model cars, but I'm sure others that are more familiar with them will chip in on your specific concerns. However your experience with things being noted as "needing" attention, then not being noted again, even though the "problem" has not been addressed, sounds all to familiar.
My wife had a Nissan Juke that she had serviced at the local Nissan dealer. Every time she came home there would be items that "needed" attention. Battery, brakes, cam cover gasket, tyres, wiper blades etc.
I'd check it out and it was always "like WTF are they on about"?
Why do wiper blades that are soft and supple and still wipe the screen perfectly "need" replacing?🤷‍♂️
Why do brake pads that are still 7mm thick and rotors with no discernable wear need attention when the car brakes perfectly?
Why do tyres that are still 3mm off the wear indicators and wearing evenly "need" replacing?
The cam cover gasket was just a grimy bit of an oil smear. The car never appeared to use a drop of oil between services, so clearly it didn't "need" doing.
The battery "needed" replacing, it wasn't mentioned again, then finally died 2 years later.
Funny thing was at the next service after the battery died, they again said the battery "needed replacing" and it already had a brand new Supercharge Gold battery sitting in it.🤦‍♂️

One thing I took note of was that all of these "problems" started to appear from the first service she had done after the warranty ran out.🤔🤔
 
Is it the 1.6 turbo ? Reading the parts list there they have really given the car a good lookover over and debug session. I'd be more than happy with that parts list. I'd be interested to hear what the induction clean and injector clean is. ie: did they just spray it down and throw some injector cleaner in the tank..... or did they pull the injectors and send them for cleaning and strip the induction side down and blast the inlet valves. I'm guessing the easiest way to tell is .... was it eye wateringly expensive :clown:
 
Allen,

Your car is low on km for its age. The top engine mounts and torque bars only last about 100k km so should be replaced if they havn't been already. Similarly, the coolant and fuel filter should be on a km time change and should have been be replaced already as should have been the timing belt (180k km or 9 years). I replace the fuel filter on my earlier RHR engined car before I take it on a big trip so the engine gives full power when passing on the highway.

Do you have oil coming down the end of the engine next to the gearbox? It is not likely from the gasket on the HP diesel pump. My mechanic said they all leaked and I had mine replaced but it still leaked - dodgy gasket system I'd say.

The diesels don't have a throttle, or a throttle position sensor.

The other areas like air doser and vacuum tubes are weaker points of the engine but could last the life of the engine.

Use a diesel additive if you think the injectors need a clean.

The induction and EGR valve could have a soot oil off clean but you usually get some intermittant error messages before that system fails and it should go for 200k km.

Cheers, Ken
 
Ken W said:
Allen,

Your car is low on km for its age. The top engine mounts and torque bars only last about 100k km so should be replaced if they havn't been already. Similarly, the coolant and fuel filter should be on a km time change and should have been be replaced already as should have been the timing belt (180k km or 9 years). I replace the fuel filter on my earlier RHR engined car before I take it on a big trip so the engine gives full power when passing on the highway.

Do you have oil coming down the end of the engine next to the gearbox? It is not likely from the gasket on the HP diesel pump. My mechanic said they all leaked and I had mine replaced but it still leaked - dodgy gasket system I'd say.

The diesels don't have a throttle, or a throttle position sensor.

The other areas like air doser and vacuum tubes are weaker points of the engine but could last the life of the engine.

Use a diesel additive if you think the injectors need a clean.

The induction and EGR valve could have a soot oil off clean but you usually get some intermittant error messages before that system fails and it should go for 200k km.

Cheers, Ken
Click to expand...
Oh, I was thinking it might be the 1.6 petrol turbo ......
 
Is this an RHH engine?

The fuel filter is replaced at major services - why does it need doing again? The doser valves have an actuator that can loosen, so secure it. The cost of a new unit is high. The doser valves are vacuum activated, and oil gets into the rubber vacuum tubing softening it - the tube can even fall off. The fix is simple - extend it with something firmer. I use a plastic fitting. The battery sensor either works or it doesn't. Clean the battery. The engine mount you can see for yourself.

If the coolant hasn't been changed since new, it is time for renewal. The coolant is a long life product.
 
Hi.

My personal opinion is that many vehicles are over serviced, and many fluids and components are replaced unnecessarily. So that is my starting point.

I know this is a silly analogy, but I use it to illustrate my point. If you could purchase a crankshaft in a bottle and easily "pour it into" the engine, after you had "drained" the existing crankshaft, there would be many crankshafts replaced and the auto industry would have many bottles of better crankshafts to select from, and service centres would recommend the replacement of the crankshaft, just to be sure. Owners would "replace" their crankshaft prior to long trips and towing, as the crankshaft is a highly stressed engine component. My point is, fluids are easily replaced and are easy revenue and resonate with the owners desire to keep their vehicle in tip top condition.

Allen - The most telling comment from your post is that in their hurry to write a long list of things to be done, they haven't done one of the key basics, ensure battery terminals are clean and won't corrode.

I think Greenpeace and seasink make some good points about over servicing. And to answer Greenpeace question as to why? It is to make more revenue and more gross profit for the service centre, as they know that you "love your car". So what happens is they make many recommendations and I'm sure many people will accept what the service centre says, as "they are the experts" and proceed with authorising unnecessary and/or early replacement of parts or fluids that are not really needed. So Allen, at least you are questioning the validitiy of the suggested list, well done.

As to your list. I agree that the broken engine mount link needs to be resolved. As to the balance on the list, I would just follow the manufacturer’s maintenance schedule.

As others have said petrol and diesel fuels all have additive packs in them already that keep the fuel system clean, why add more?

The best thing you have done to your engine is to have driven from Margaret River to Perth and return, as it has warmed up to operating temperature and any carbon deposits would have an opportunity to burn off, and volatiles and water in the engine oil will be evaporated, fuel would be flowing through injectors and flush any deposits away etc. If you vehicle has a particle filter it would have had hours of time to perform a regeneration and to clear the exhaust etc.

Anyway they are my thoughts.

Cheers.
 
Whippet said:
Hi.

My personal opinion is that many vehicles are over serviced, and many fluids and components are replaced unnecessarily. So that is my starting point.

I know this is a silly analogy, but I use it to illustrate my point. If you could purchase a crankshaft in a bottle and easily "pour it into" the engine, after you had "drained" the existing crankshaft, there would be many crankshafts replaced and the auto industry would have many bottles of better crankshafts to select from, and service centres would recommend the replacement of the crankshaft, just to be sure. Owners would "replace" their crankshaft prior to long trips and towing, as the crankshaft is a highly stressed engine component. My point is, fluids are easily replaced and are easy revenue and resonate with the owners desire to keep their vehicle in tip top condition.

Allen - The most telling comment from your post is that in their hurry to write a long list of things to be done, they haven't done one of the key basics, ensure battery terminals are clean and won't corrode.

I think Greenpeace and seasink make some good points about over servicing. And to answer Greenpeace question as to why? It is to make more revenue and more gross profit for the service centre, as they know that you "love your car". So what happens is they make many recommendations and I'm sure many people will accept what the service centre says, as "they are the experts" and proceed with authorising unnecessary and/or early replacement of parts or fluids that are not really needed. So Allen, at least you are questioning the validitiy of the suggested list, well done.

As to your list. I agree that the broken engine mount link needs to be resolved. As to the balance on the list, I would just follow the manufacturer’s maintenance schedule.

As others have said petrol and diesel fuels all have additive packs in them already that keep the fuel system clean, why add more?

The best thing you have done to your engine is to have driven from Margaret River to Perth and return, as it has warmed up to operating temperature and any carbon deposits would have an opportunity to burn off, and volatiles and water in the engine oil will be evaporated, fuel would be flowing through injectors and flush any deposits away etc. If you vehicle has a particle filter it would have had hours of time to perform a regeneration and to clear the exhaust etc.

Anyway they are my thoughts.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

If its the 1.6 petrol turbo, they ahve
Whippet said:
Hi.

My personal opinion is that many vehicles are over serviced, and many fluids and components are replaced unnecessarily. So that is my starting point.

I know this is a silly analogy, but I use it to illustrate my point. If you could purchase a crankshaft in a bottle and easily "pour it into" the engine, after you had "drained" the existing crankshaft, there would be many crankshafts replaced and the auto industry would have many bottles of better crankshafts to select from, and service centres would recommend the replacement of the crankshaft, just to be sure. Owners would "replace" their crankshaft prior to long trips and towing, as the crankshaft is a highly stressed engine component. My point is, fluids are easily replaced and are easy revenue and resonate with the owners desire to keep their vehicle in tip top condition.

Allen - The most telling comment from your post is that in their hurry to write a long list of things to be done, they haven't done one of the key basics, ensure battery terminals are clean and won't corrode.

I think Greenpeace and seasink make some good points about over servicing. And to answer Greenpeace question as to why? It is to make more revenue and more gross profit for the service centre, as they know that you "love your car". So what happens is they make many recommendations and I'm sure many people will accept what the service centre says, as "they are the experts" and proceed with authorising unnecessary and/or early replacement of parts or fluids that are not really needed. So Allen, at least you are questioning the validitiy of the suggested list, well done.

As to your list. I agree that the broken engine mount link needs to be resolved. As to the balance on the list, I would just follow the manufacturer’s maintenance schedule.

As others have said petrol and diesel fuels all have additive packs in them already that keep the fuel system clean, why add more?

The best thing you have done to your engine is to have driven from Margaret River to Perth and return, as it has warmed up to operating temperature and any carbon deposits would have an opportunity to burn off, and volatiles and water in the engine oil will be evaporated, fuel would be flowing through injectors and flush any deposits away etc. If you vehicle has a particle filter it would have had hours of time to perform a regeneration and to clear the exhaust etc.

Anyway they are my thoughts.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

I usually think of it along those lines too. I read that list and thought "1.6 turbo" which means they have done quite a bit of preventative work. ie: its gone somewhere that really knows what the common problems are. If its the 2.0HDi .... er, well mine had done 240,000kms and counting and hasn't had most of those things touched :)
 
Allen said:
Airdoser needs replacing *
Click to expand...
These eventually start to leak oily residue from the spindle. Check the hoses, degrease it and see if it's leaking. The actuator rod can also fall off and the fix would be to replace it. It's not an urgent issue if it still works.

Allen said:
Vacuum pipe needs replacing *
Fuel high pressure pump gasket needs replacing
induction service *
... rocker cover gasket
Click to expand...
These are possibly all related. It doesn't have a 'rocker cover' as such, but the air intake manifold on top often leaks (down back of head/engine) where it seals on top of the head. The vacuum pipes become brittle and will possibly break when fixing the leakage. The high pressure fuel pipes at the fuel rail are regarded as single-use. The pump may actually be leaking lubricating oil from the shaft seal, which can be matched up from any bearing place vs spending thousands on a new pump.
 
Typically the corrosion around the negative terminal is typically caused by under charging due to short trips
https://www.worldwidefaqs.com/what-causes-corrosion-on-negative-battery-terminal/
of many

Now the battery voltage sensor has probably been affect by the corrosion or has been giving incorrect values to the charging system

Battery sensor: how it works, problems, checking, battery replacement

What is a battery sensor in a car, problems, checking, replacement; changing a battery with a battery sensor
www.samarins.com www.samarins.com
Battery won't last 7 years with under charging, 3 is probably reasonable .
 
DoubleChevron said:
If its the 1.6 petrol turbo, they ahve


I usually think of it along those lines too. I read that list and thought "1.6 turbo" which means they have done quite a bit of preventative work. ie: its gone somewhere that really knows what the common problems are. If its the 2.0HDi .... er, well mine had done 240,000kms and counting and hasn't had most of those things touched :)
Click to expand...

Shane you haven't read the original post - this isn't a list of work completed, it is a list of work that the dealer says should be completed IN ADDITION to the major service just done.
 
DoubleChevron said:
Is it the 1.6 turbo ? Reading the parts list there they have really given the car a good lookover over and debug session. I'd be more than happy with that parts list. I'd be interested to hear what the induction clean and injector clean is. ie: did they just spray it down and throw some injector cleaner in the tank..... or did they pull the injectors and send them for cleaning and strip the induction side down and blast the inlet valves. I'm guessing the easiest way to tell is .... was it eye wateringly expensive :clown:
Click to expand...
Well the point is none of it has been done. They are recommendations and I am still waiting for the costing of the various items to be provided, something they promised but not delivered. The vehicle is a 2 lire HDi.
 
Ken W said:
Allen,

Your car is low on km for its age. The top engine mounts and torque bars only last about 100k km so should be replaced if they havn't been already. Similarly, the coolant and fuel filter should be on a km time change and should have been be replaced already as should have been the timing belt (180k km or 9 years). I replace the fuel filter on my earlier RHR engined car before I take it on a big trip so the engine gives full power when passing on the highway.

Do you have oil coming down the end of the engine next to the gearbox? It is not likely from the gasket on the HP diesel pump. My mechanic said they all leaked and I had mine replaced but it still leaked - dodgy gasket system I'd say.

The diesels don't have a throttle, or a throttle position sensor.

The other areas like air doser and vacuum tubes are weaker points of the engine but could last the life of the engine.

Use a diesel additive if you think the injectors need a clean.

The induction and EGR valve could have a soot oil off clean but you usually get some intermittant error messages before that system fails and it should go for 200k km.

Cheers, Ken
Click to expand...
Yes, Ken. It is low mileage for its age. That's why I bought it 3 years ago when it had done only 65k. I had a new timing belt fitted and 4 new tyres in the purchase price of $12,000. Apart from a couple of minor glitches, it just runs beautifully. It has a pretty easy life, short runs in and out of Margaret River, but long ones of a hundred k's or so every couple of weeks, and 600km round trips to Perth every few months. What I'm not clear about is what the battery charge sensing unit does and whether it could be causing the small amount of corrosion on the negative battery terminal. I'm shocked that they say the throttle position sensor needs replacing if it doesn't have one. I also don't understand what the Air doser does and why it would need replacing. Surely it works or it doesn't. And regarding the fuel injector service, I suppose that could be a worthy service, but I would think they would just put stuff in the fuel tank. But maybe I'm wrong. As I think I mentioned elsewhere, the RHF link has been broken since i bought the car, which is why, I gather, it gives a small shudder when I switch the engine off. Not too expensive to replace, so I might have it done. I've been told the Rocker cover gasket is leaking, but it uses absolutely no oil between annual changes, nor are there any drips in the carport (although the engine floorpan would disguise this. I'll chase the Service Centre up for a detailed costing and might have anything important done.
 
seasink said:
Is this an RHH engine?

The fuel filter is replaced at major services - why does it need doing again? The doser valves have an actuator that can loosen, so secure it. The cost of a new unit is high. The doser valves are vacuum activated, and oil gets into the rubber vacuum tubing softening it - the tube can even fall off. The fix is simple - extend it with something firmer. I use a plastic fitting. The battery sensor either works or it doesn't. Clean the battery. The engine mount you can see for yourself.

If the coolant hasn't been changed since new, it is time for renewal. The coolant is a long life product.
Click to expand...
 
Hi seasink. Yes, it's an RHH engine. I'm afraid I'm very ignorant regarding modern engines. My experience in taking them apart began with a 1929 Austin 7 Meteor sports, and finished with a Triumph Herald coupe. I still have a tin of self tapping screws and speed nuts which held the Triumph together. Where is the Doser located? Is it in the large intake tube which I think contains a flap valve or two. The control arm fell off the connecting ball on one of them and a replacement unit was very expensive. However the clever mechanic down the road drilled a hole in the arm and put a Locktite coated screw in and it's worked perfectly ever since. But maybe that's not the doser. The coolant was changed a couple of years ago. I see it was tested with PH test strips and was passed as ok. I'll clean the battery terminal. Surprised they didn't.
 
Whippet said:
Hi.

My personal opinion is that many vehicles are over serviced, and many fluids and components are replaced unnecessarily. So that is my starting point.

I know this is a silly analogy, but I use it to illustrate my point. If you could purchase a crankshaft in a bottle and easily "pour it into" the engine, after you had "drained" the existing crankshaft, there would be many crankshafts replaced and the auto industry would have many bottles of better crankshafts to select from, and service centres would recommend the replacement of the crankshaft, just to be sure. Owners would "replace" their crankshaft prior to long trips and towing, as the crankshaft is a highly stressed engine component. My point is, fluids are easily replaced and are easy revenue and resonate with the owners desire to keep their vehicle in tip top condition.

Allen - The most telling comment from your post is that in their hurry to write a long list of things to be done, they haven't done one of the key basics, ensure battery terminals are clean and won't corrode.

I think Greenpeace and seasink make some good points about over servicing. And to answer Greenpeace question as to why? It is to make more revenue and more gross profit for the service centre, as they know that you "love your car". So what happens is they make many recommendations and I'm sure many people will accept what the service centre says, as "they are the experts" and proceed with authorising unnecessary and/or early replacement of parts or fluids that are not really needed. So Allen, at least you are questioning the validitiy of the suggested list, well done.

As to your list. I agree that the broken engine mount link needs to be resolved. As to the balance on the list, I would just follow the manufacturer’s maintenance schedule.

As others have said petrol and diesel fuels all have additive packs in them already that keep the fuel system clean, why add more?

The best thing you have done to your engine is to have driven from Margaret River to Perth and return, as it has warmed up to operating temperature and any carbon deposits would have an opportunity to burn off, and volatiles and water in the engine oil will be evaporated, fuel would be flowing through injectors and flush any deposits away etc. If you vehicle has a particle filter it would have had hours of time to perform a regeneration and to clear the exhaust etc.

Anyway they are my thoughts.

Cheers.
Click to expand...
Thanks, Whippet. Yes, I think I'm with you there. The car does get some reasonable runs, at least a hundred odd k's to Busselton and back or to Augusta every week or so. My previous C5 which in retrospect was a bit of a dog in many ways (and I hasten to assure you I do love dogs) often rang bells and told me to head immediately to a service centre and have the particle filter (I think it was) changed. The solution, of course, was to take it for a mad burst somewhere for a few minutes and things would return to normal.
 
David S said:
These eventually start to leak oily residue from the spindle. Check the hoses, degrease it and see if it's leaking. The actuator rod can also fall off and the fix would be to replace it. It's not an urgent issue if it still works.


These are possibly all related. It doesn't have a 'rocker cover' as such, but the air intake manifold on top often leaks (down back of head/engine) where it seals on top of the head. The vacuum pipes become brittle and will possibly break when fixing the leakage. The high pressure fuel pipes at the fuel rail are regarded as single-use. The pump may actually be leaking lubricating oil from the shaft seal, which can be matched up from any bearing place vs spending thousands on a new pump.
Click to expand...
Ah!. Yes I thought the air doser might be the thing I had a problem with a couple of years ago when the actuator rod fell off. See my note below somewhere. It was fixed cheaply by the local garage with a setscrew and a dollop of Locktite. a whole new doser and body was hundreds of dollars. Don't know why it needs replacing now. I'll ask them. Maybe they think the link will fall off again?
 
what the battery charge sensing unit does and whether it could be causing the small amount of corrosion
Click to expand...

See the link I posted for details of what it does. It is for the computer's benefit. It is a terminal fitting to the earth cable. Since it is sealed inside its case and has no acid it isn't causing the corrosion.
 
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