Wanted R10 - Distributor advance / retard vacuum can.

Geoff1021

Geoff1021

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Hi after finding whilst timing my rectangle light '69, R10, that it has no advance / retard working I sent the distributor to David in Epping to overhaul.

He has found that the diaphragm is broken (and can be repaired) but also that the can is a smaller size than the original so would never produce the correct curve.

So I am looking for an original R10 vacuum can, does anyone have one that I might acquire?
Thanks Geoff
 
Geoff,
David rang me last night and I said I’d be able to help out.
Last I heard he was stripping yours down first to see what else he needed before I posted what was required to him.

KB
 
Yes thanks very much. David has found that the 2 distributors are slightly different and queried that one from the 169 rectangle headlight 10 was original. As far as I know it is, but I check some French suppliers yesterday and could only find a replacement distributor that suit 8 to 12 from which I assume that all those models had the same distributor, which does not help why my 2 are different.
Like you say I will wait to he has had a good look at them!
 
Simon could probably help with Ducellier body numbers and advance curves for the various 8 and 10 models but from my point of view, with exception of the first R8 (1130) which had the 956 engine the remaining 8 (1132) and both R10’s round eye and rectangular (excepting 10S) all used the same 688-02 engine so I’d be surprised if they are not interchangeable even if different. The dizzy I was planning to send david will have come from an R8 or R10 but to be honest, I’m not sure which.
 
I don't think the dimensions are crucial but the movement under vacuum is.

You can rig up a very simple test bench to determine this. A little bit of vacuum hose and two syringes should give you two points to build a deflection graph. If you are worried the movement is non linear you can use three syringes. Syringes of different capacities, of course. If the old capsule has the same graph, it don't matter no part numbers, size, etc. as long as it fits the screw holes (which you can modify if need be).

Trick is, have you got a good old capsule to check the curve? Well, maybe somebody else does.
 
My :2cents:. I don't think it is such an issue. Re-build the distributer or use a serviced one with a working capsule and working centrifugal weights. Make sure that if the capsule has a small hole in it at the bottom, then replace it with a small holed one. Get rid of the play on all the moving parts. Set the points at 0.018" and turn the little ratchet cam on the vacuum capsule to mid-range.

Set your timing static at 8-10 degrees. ie turn the engine until the TDC mark is 8-10 degrees BTDC. It will be about 8-10 mm before. Loosen the distributor slightly and turn it clockwise about 10 degrees. Now turn it CCW slowly, with the ignition on, until you see a small spark. Stop there and tighten the clamp.

With the vacuum tube disconnected and plugged, start the car and check with the timing light, it should be right. Rev the car to above 3000 rpm and note the advance. It should advance to about 30 degrees. If so then the centrifugal advance is working.

Connect the vacuum tube and check the advance again with the timing light. It should be advancing more than the previous 30 degrees when held at a steady 3-3500 rpm. This is because there is no load on the engine. If you activate the accelerator fast, the timing should retard back to 30 degrees and when you leave the accelerator it should exceed the previous advance. This is not really necessary but interesting to see.

Now drive the car, it should be spot on for you. If it hunts a little when cruising the ratchet cam can be slacked or tensioned until it is smooth because that means the timing is a little too fast or too slow for the speed.

The figures in the book could be dyno figures of many years ago. In the meantime the engine has a little wear after 50K miles, you are living at a different altitude, you are using a different octane fuel and a better quality fuel, your plug gap may be different. All this affects the specs given by the factory. So why try to get it within a degree or so if all those variants have varied?

Regards, Frans.
 
Frans said:
My :2cents:. I don't think it is such an issue. Re-build the distributer or use a serviced one with a working capsule and working centrifugal weights. Make sure that if the capsule has a small hole in it at the bottom, then replace it with a small holed one. Get rid of the play on all the moving parts. Set the points at 0.018" and turn the little ratchet cam on the vacuum capsule to mid-range.

Set your timing static at 8-10 degrees. ie turn the engine until the TDC mark is 8-10 degrees BTDC. It will be about 8-10 mm before. Loosen the distributor slightly and turn it clockwise about 10 degrees. Now turn it CCW slowly, with the ignition on, until you see a small spark. Stop there and tighten the clamp.

With the vacuum tube disconnected and plugged, start the car and check with the timing light, it should be right. Rev the car to above 3000 rpm and note the advance. It should advance to about 30 degrees. If so then the centrifugal advance is working.

Connect the vacuum tube and check the advance again with the timing light. It should be advancing more than the previous 30 degrees when held at a steady 3-3500 rpm. This is because there is no load on the engine. If you activate the accelerator fast, the timing should retard back to 30 degrees and when you leave the accelerator it should exceed the previous advance. This is not really necessary but interesting to see.

Now drive the car, it should be spot on for you. If it hunts a little when cruising the ratchet cam can be slacked or tensioned until it is smooth because that means the timing is a little too fast or too slow for the speed.

The figures in the book could be dyno figures of many years ago. In the meantime the engine has a little wear after 50K miles, you are living at a different altitude, you are using a different octane fuel and a better quality fuel, your plug gap may be different. All this affects the specs given by the factory. So why try to get it within a degree or so if all those variants have varied?

Regards, Frans.
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Spot on I reckon.
 
Hi all, thanks for all the advice. KB has sent 2 to David to overhaul 1 for me. No clue where the one on the car came from!!
 
renault8&10 said:
Simon could probably help with Ducellier body numbers and advance curves for the various 8 and 10 models but from my point of view, with exception of the first R8 (1130) which had the 956 engine the remaining 8 (1132) and both R10’s round eye and rectangular (excepting 10S) all used the same 688-02 engine so I’d be surprised if they are not interchangeable even if different. The dizzy I was planning to send david will have come from an R8 or R10 but to be honest, I’m not sure which.
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Thanks Kevin what do I owe you for the distributor and courier? Geoff
 
All good Geoff. David and I will work something out. The dizzys are a gift, and the postage was only $15. When lockdown is lifted, I want David to do a small job for me so we said we’d work something out directly. You don’t need to worry about paying me.

He rang me about 30mins ago and reckons between the two ones I sent, he’ll have what he needs for yours.
KB
 
renault8&10 said:
All good Geoff. David and I will work something out. The dizzys are a gift, and the postage was only $15. When lockdown is lifted, I want David to do a small job for me so we said we’d work something out directly. You don’t need to worry about paying me.

He rang me about 30mins ago and reckons between the two ones I sent, he’ll have what he needs for yours.
KB
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Hi Kevin, Thanks again for the distributor, David sent me photos of the new bearings and posts he has made. Looks good. This is all for my '69 bathurst blue square headlight Renault R10. This has been registered after I stripped it right down, removed rust, re painted (2 pack) and got it going. Never went real well so I had Claude of Auovas at Blacktown overhaul the carburetor, which is where he found the distributor can broken. So I went to David to help out. I have no idea how it came to have an odd part number in it, although various people have had it over the years when we were working overseas. Oh I should say we bought it new the year we were married because my mini really was not the car to drive to Bourke, where I had been posted.

I bought a '67 red round headlight car as spare parts, but used very few, so for the last few years have been doing the same to it. It has 22,400 miles on the clock, but had been in an accident with a new right hand front fender and burnt out wiring harness. Also missing a few parts, windscreen, ceiling liner etc. Also the water pump had disintegrated! And a lot of rust!

So it has come as a surprise when after pulling the rear axle off the gear box to check out the box, all OK, so cleaning up the axle tubes and find the driver's side needle bearing assemble broken! See photo. Don't know if I broke pulling it apart or already broken, does not matter much.

So my question is do you have or know where I might get one - needle bearing assemble, seal and washer?
 

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I don’t, it’s been a while since I’ve chased transmission bearings and seals but I would say get the old ones out and look for any markings or dimensions. If there are, you could go to a general bearing supplies franchise like CBC bearings (they used to be in 7 Hills) or someone of that nature. The details may also be in the parts manual. I can look later tonight or tomorrow in my book.

Failing that you could take the old ones directly to the bearing shop and they will measure them up and see if they have a match.

You could alternatively contact ken Bailey if he’s still in business (@any melbournites know his whereabouts and mobile #?) and ask him; or colliers in Granville if they can get them. If they all draw a blank, you may have to go O/S to suppliers like Mecaparts, pieces alpine (jyl on here) or one of the other French or euro suppliers.
 
Geoff1021 said:
Hi Kevin, Thanks again for the distributor, David sent me photos of the new bearings and posts he has made. Looks good. This is all for my '69 bathurst blue square headlight Renault R10. This has been registered after I stripped it right down, removed rust, re painted (2 pack) and got it going. Never went real well so I had Claude of Auovas at Blacktown overhaul the carburetor, which is where he found the distributor can broken. So I went to David to help out. I have no idea how it came to have an odd part number in it, although various people have had it over the years when we were working overseas. Oh I should say we bought it new the year we were married because my mini really was not the car to drive to Bourke, where I had been posted.

I bought a '67 red round headlight car as spare parts, but used very few, so for the last few years have been doing the same to it. It has 22,400 miles on the clock, but had been in an accident with a new right hand front fender and burnt out wiring harness. Also missing a few parts, windscreen, ceiling liner etc. Also the water pump had disintegrated! And a lot of rust!

So it has come as a surprise when after pulling the rear axle off the gear box to check out the box, all OK, so cleaning up the axle tubes and find the driver's side needle bearing assemble broken! See photo. Don't know if I broke pulling it apart or already broken, does not matter much.

So my question is do you have or know where I might get one - needle bearing assemble, seal and washer?
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They are available new from the usual suppliers in France. Are the trunnion pins unmarked? If not, I'm sure someone would have a spare cap and you could do my trick and have a bronze bush machined to press lightly on the pin and rotate in the hard steel cap. It's been fine for 30 years on my 4CV with Molygrease.

https://www.bretagneautoretro.fr/product/de-trompette-204/ takes you to new ones of 20.4 mm diameter, listed for R10.
 
Thanks Jon I looked up melun-retro-passion and mecaparts.com who did not have them listed so sent them both emails, but did not go any further. I am just checking with Colliers to see what they have and will also check with Darrin at T & D machinery when he has pressed the new bearings on the axles for me. All in all I am feeling much better about!
Thanks Geoff
 
Geoff1021 said:
Thanks Jon I looked up melun-retro-passion and mecaparts.com who did not have them listed so sent them both emails, but did not go any further. I am just checking with Colliers to see what they have and will also check with Darrin at T & D machinery when he has pressed the new bearings on the axles for me. All in all I am feeling much better about!
Thanks Geoff
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Yes, that's why I sent the Bretagne Auto Retro link! :) All you need is one old, unbroken cap of the size to accomodate the 20.4 mm pin and get a bush machined. When I had mine done at a great old school workshop, the main debate was what specific bronze to use.
 
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