Towing with 2019 Koleos

Whippet said:
Hi schlitzaugen.

If the rear and front axles were rigid and not sprung, would you still pursue your argument?

If you had the vehicle front and rear axles as rigid (unspring) and sitting on individual scales, the load figures calculated by Fordman still hold and would be reflected on the scales.

You are confusing that the rear (and front) axle is a pivot point and suspension concurrently. It reacts in response to changes in load.
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I answered that very question in my post above.

I agree weight on the axles would change even with a rigid chassis, but you have to be careful again in calculating how.

My suspicion is that the position of the centre of mass of the entire vehicle dictates where the fulcrum point is. Which is why I think you are afflicted by the very confusion you project on me.
 
schlitzaugen said:
I answered that very question in my post above.

I agree weight on the axles would change even with a rigid chassis, but you have to be careful again in calculating how. Whippet: No you don't, the calculation stands.

My suspicion is that the position of the centre of mass of the entire vehicle dictates where the fulcrum point is. Which is why I think you are afflicted by the very confusion you project on me.
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H'mm. We might have to agree to disagree.

A fulcrum point by definition requires something physical to fulcrum against.

I would accept your comment if you changed the word "fulcrum" to "the virtual point of rotation".

I also don't accept that the "virtual point of rotation" will be at the center of mass. It will be dependent on the differential action of an offset load on a sprung fulcrum point (the rear axle), concurrently interacting with a second sprung support point (the front axle).

At the end of the day, all Fordman was wanting to achieve was a rough idea of the how much the suspension changed in response to a down force on his tow bar ball. Conveniently he had a load of pavers in his boot and did some simple ratio analysis to achieve this. I concur with his calculations.
 
Virtual point of rotation is actually the real point of rotation in this case. "Fulcrum" may not be technically right in this case, but it makes no difference. You don't need a support to have a fulcrum. Think for instance about large cosmic objects. Gravity is enough to provide support (or not) and in this case we are talking about gravity.

But hey, if that blows your boat, so be it.

I am not sure either about the centre of mass, that is why I said I have a suspicion that is it. As in I am not sure. It would be the place where I would look first, however. My scientific gut tells me the centre of mass has some bearing on things. Again think of cosmic objects and you'll see the centre of mass is usually the culprit.

Sure, Fordman did a good job for a back of the envelope calculation. I just wanted to point out there may be some difference. Which may or may not be significant. Like I suggested above, I would measure along the car to see where I find a point that doesn't move and that is the point. If that point is close to the front axle then the difference is not going to be much but if it is far enough (I don't know what far enough would be, I need to check the numbers again to get an idea), then I would do a proper calculation because you may be caught out.

Conversely, one can actually do a new calculation with an assumed point of rotation say about 1 metre back from the front axle (I think that would just about cover it) and see how much the tow ball load changes. If it isn't much, then no worries. But if it is, at least one is aware the load might be a bit higher.
 
well who's a silly boy then, not clicking the button that says "send me all replies". just finished reading all three pages of replies, my situation has been sorted out by where I live...

hooking up the trailer/boat for the first time revealed a suspension lowering at the back by about 50mm, same up at the front. took the boat out and checked stability at 60, 80, 90 and 100 km/h and was astounded by how well it tracked behind the Koleos. apart from upping the tyre pressures on the rear tyres the 600 km trip to Boonah was a non event - until we got about one km from home...

now I will admit to being ridiculously optimistic about a front wheel drive car pulling that load up a steep gravel road, but there you go. no way it was going to handle the steepest bit, so the good old Hilux to the rescue. didn't even bother to disconnect the boat from the trailer, just hooked up the tow strap and towed the whole deal up the last of the hill - in first gear low ratio the Hilux will climb a tree...

bottom line is the Hilux is now the tow car for the boat, I had serious doubts about the Koleos on slippery boat ramps anyway. thanks to alla youse guys for the input, turned out to be quite an interesting thread.

cheers big ears

BP
 
boleropilot said:
well who's a silly boy then, not clicking the button that says "send me all replies". just finished reading all three pages of replies, my situation has been sorted out by where I live...

hooking up the trailer/boat for the first time revealed a suspension lowering at the back by about 50mm, same up at the front. took the boat out and checked stability at 60, 80, 90 and 100 km/h and was astounded by how well it tracked behind the Koleos. apart from upping the tyre pressures on the rear tyres the 600 km trip to Boonah was a non event - until we got about one km from home...

now I will admit to being ridiculously optimistic about a front wheel drive car pulling that load up a steep gravel road, but there you go. no way it was going to handle the steepest bit, so the good old Hilux to the rescue. didn't even bother to disconnect the boat from the trailer, just hooked up the tow strap and towed the whole deal up the last of the hill - in first gear low ratio the Hilux will climb a tree...

bottom line is the Hilux is now the tow car for the boat, I had serious doubts about the Koleos on slippery boat ramps anyway. thanks to alla youse guys for the input, turned out to be quite an interesting thread.

cheers big ears

BP
Click to expand...

I ponder how many front wheel drives you have owned to somehow instill yourself with such confidence in the Koleos' ability to overcome physics.......... :)
 
Hi Boleropilot, just for interest, do you know what your actual towball weight is on your boat trailer to produce the 50mm lowering of the rear suspension?
 
Front wheel drives are fanstatic towcars. You have obviously found the biggest issue is traction with weight transfer uphill. Boat ramps that are slippery are borderline for RWDs too. the beachfronts down around the bay used to be littered with tractors to do the "recover the boat" activies down here.
 
Fordman said:
Hi Boleropilot, just for interest, do you know what your actual towball weight is on your boat trailer to produce the 50mm lowering of the rear suspension?
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I haven't actually weighed it yet, I need to get the trailer on hard level ground - will try to do it this afternoon
 
Hi there.
I asked about tow bars a few months ago, before I set off on my big trip. I did not get one fitted before I left but am now back to doing that.
I see Fordman you recently got a tow bar fitted by Parkside. And previously people recommended Hayman Reece. See: https://www.haymanreese.com.au/images/news/4712971/pdf_1550016154.pdf. There's another brand: Trailboss. Anyone know anything about them?
I have a 2019 Koleos Diesel, Intens. I see elsewhere folks saying the rear sensors pose a problem. And one tow bar place says that in such cases, "an auto cancel harness will be necessary".
I contacted the Renault dealer and they said there was NIL stock in Australia and in any case the cost would be "over a two of thousand dollars"). BTW: I'm in semi-Rural NSW.
So, my questions are
(1) whether fitting a tow bar is that difficult to my Koleos for a non-Renault shop - I would not want them to bugger up the electrics - and
(2) I'm leaning towards the Hayman - does fitting it mean the sensors are disabled all the time?
Thanks for reading. I appreciate your thoughts.
 
I think if you look at the HR website, and there was another one over there, can't remember name, you will find they can supply a standard harness to suit Koleos, it plugs in to the Koleos electrics, not hand made by the local installer.
It includes the little electronic module to sort out the sensors when in reverse.
If the local installer uses HR or the other, just make sure they are using the harness. It obviously adds to the cost but works fine, I think it just disables the rear sensors when trailer plugged in.
Mine works completely as normal when trailer not fitted.

Edit: The Parkside towbar was very similar to the HR and it was manufactured in the East somewhere, I had to wait for it. He might have told me they are all made in the same place.
 
I had factory fitted towbars on both of my Koleos (what's the plural for Koleos?), looked like Harman-Reese.
The HZG didn't appear to have anything special in the wiring harness and the proximity senors were a pain when reversing unless you turned them off by going through the set-up menus. But the sensors only went off when reversing so most of the time they weren't a problem.
(My H45 Koleos was good, there was a switch on the lower RH dash to switch the sensors off or on, a two second job. The HZG, you have to go through 3 or 4 menus for the same result).
A towbar will also likely affect the hand-free tailgate sensor.
 
aegis said:
Hi there.
I asked about tow bars a few months ago, before I set off on my big trip. I did not get one fitted before I left but am now back to doing that.
I see Fordman you recently got a tow bar fitted by Parkside. And previously people recommended Hayman Reece. See: https://www.haymanreese.com.au/images/news/4712971/pdf_1550016154.pdf. There's another brand: Trailboss. Anyone know anything about them?
I have a 2019 Koleos Diesel, Intens. I see elsewhere folks saying the rear sensors pose a problem. And one tow bar place says that in such cases, "an auto cancel harness will be necessary".
I contacted the Renault dealer and they said there was NIL stock in Australia and in any case the cost would be "over a two of thousand dollars"). BTW: I'm in semi-Rural NSW.
So, my questions are
(1) whether fitting a tow bar is that difficult to my Koleos for a non-Renault shop - I would not want them to bugger up the electrics - and
(2) I'm leaning towards the Hayman - does fitting it mean the sensors are disabled all the time?
Thanks for reading. I appreciate your thoughts.
Click to expand...

On the early x-trails the good towbar kits had optional harness that used a relay to cut the power to reverse sensors when the trailer plug was connected to the trailer socket and enabled the relay. On the T32 which I assume is your 2019 Koleos you get the dealer to use their Consult diagnostic system to interogate the sonar system ecu and set the 'TRAILER HITCH DETECTION RANGE ADJUSTMENT' to suit your trailer. Once above 5km/h Sonar unit will now detect trailer is fitted and disable rear sensors when in reverse. Disconnect trailer and next time you turn ignition on and sonar sees no trailer it enables the rear sensors. Easy Peasy :)
 
One thing we didn't have a problem with is the reversing side of things - the alarm went off during reversing back to connect the trailer, didn't make a sound once we started moving forward. The towbar is a heavy duty Hayman Reese and was installed by towbar experts, don't actually know if they made any changes to the wiring loom.

Another thing I thought might happen is for the 'foot under the bumper' tailgate opening device to stop working - that didn't happen, it still works, just like before = when it feels like it !

I'm still keen on getting some kind of rear suspension mods to negate the 'tail down/nose up' situation when the trailer/boat is attached. I've only just twigged that the lack of equipment available for a Koleos may be resolved by surfing for Nissan X Trail equipment...

BP
 
boleropilot said:
I'm still keen on getting some kind of rear suspension mods to negate the 'tail down/nose up' situation when the trailer/boat is attached.

BP
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Alarm bells are ringing now..

From reading I this thread...

max towball weight is 75 kg (stipulated by Renault?)
max trailer weight is 2000kg
trailer weight is within spec.
hitch weight is exceeding max by 100%
car has nose up attitude as a result, and lacks traction.

You are considering modifying the car to help it work beyond its capabilities.
Apart from not making any difference to the legalities and therefore liabilities in the event of an incident, I feel like this is not a sensible idea with a great outcome.

Is there not a way of modifying the trailer to help it work within the design spec of the car??

If it were me in this situation, I'd be looking at working within the vehicle/towbar manufacturer's spec, and if worst comes to worst, meeting them even if it meant a less than ideal trailer setup, and enforcing a lower max vehicle speed limit on myself and the rig.

Is having an industry standard 10% hitch weight on an overloaded vehicle any better than having an under-hitch-weighted trailer on an vehicle whose towing specs are being met??

Regardless, keep the speed down. You can probably tow almost anything with anything else, in relative safety as long as you don't expect to get there quickly.
 
My 2008 Koleos diesel auto has a maximum towed weight of 1350kg with a maximum nose weight of 100kg. The torque is de-rated in the slushbox auto from 360Nm to 320Nm, probably to spare the gearbox together with the lower towed weight.
 
if your just towing the boat locally.... The cheapest way to do it safely (and legally) is probably to buy a cheap old 4wd. a v8 land rover discovery or older v6 pajero is probably about the cheapest usable tow barge around at the moment. I say local, 'cos it'll cost you a fortune in petrol to tow any distance. they can both run as full time 4wd as they have a center diff.
 
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