Small Shudder Approx Every 4th or 5th Wheel Rotation.

driven

1000+ Posts
Nuts and
The fronts have taper roller bearings, I wouldn't tighten those too much or they will collapse. Ask me how I know. Take out play, go a tiny little bit more and supervise in use.
Check out how to set Tapered roller bearings TAPERED BEARINGS
This link is like a definitive reference
Securing nut needs backing off to avoid failure. Endplay should be about 0.001 to 0.005 inches.
 

JohnW

Too many posts!
Nuts and

Check out how to set Tapered roller bearings TAPERED BEARINGS
This link is like a definitive reference
Securing nut needs backing off to avoid failure. Endplay should be about 0.001 to 0.005 inches.
Here's the key part of the TAPERED BEARINGS site with the link above. Nothing to do with Mr Sunroof's issue but nice to see it written clearly.

Wheel bearing adjustment.JPG
 

Whippet

Member
Hi. I concur with the discussion about correctly adjusting tapered roller bearings (TRB).

My observation on the sectional drawing in post #22.
I thought that the centerline of the tyre/rim and hence the vertical load usually passed closer to the larger inner TRB. On trucks where the inner and outer bearing are the same size the load centerline usually passes through the axle with the TRB equidistance from the centerline.
 

JohnW

Too many posts!
Hi. I concur with the discussion about correctly adjusting tapered roller bearings (TRB).

My observation on the sectional drawing in post #22.
I thought that the centerline of the tyre/rim and hence the vertical load usually passed closer to the larger inner TRB. On trucks where the inner and outer bearing are the same size the load centerline usually passes through the axle with the TRB equidistance from the centerline.
Diagrammatic I presume but yes, you'd want that to avoid overloading the outer bearing. On the 4CV though to R8/10/Gordini, the outer is a small 30203 bearing. They last well if adjusted correctly and lubricated.
 

Sunroof

1000+ Posts
Sorry about the delay but finally decided to investigate and found the left rear axle nut was only at about 40 ftlbs there was no split pin. So removed the tapered washer and it seems as if it has worn some. Retightened the nut using a flat washer as suggested in one manual and then replaced the V tapered washer and cranked up the the nut to 145 ftlbs as suggested in another manual. No way I can fit a split pin. So crank up to 160 ftlb and still no sign of the split pin hole and that is as much tighteness I can get standing on the tension wrench handle. So put heavy duty Locktight on the thread. My question now is, how to keep the nut done up tight? I rebuilt the rear axles, bearings etc at about 5000 kilometres ago. So must not have been able to get a split pin in then either. I could make a plate with a couple of tabs to close over the nut and bolt the plate to the studs that hold the hub on to the disc. However there is not much thread to play with on those studs.
 

simca1100

Member
Why did you add the flat washer? If you took it out again, could you tighten up the nut correctly and then fit a split pin?
 

schlitzaugen

1000+ Posts
What do you mean by "no sign of the split pin hole"? Do you mean the hole does not show through the grooves? or do you mean the groove in the nut is too far off the hole (angle wise)?

If you mean the hole doesn't show in the grooves as you you spin the nut past I would suggest you have the wrong nut. Too long. You can either take some meat off the back of the nut, or make the grooves deeper. In fact I would only make the groove that is closest to the hole deeper when you have the right torque on the nut. Don't overtighten those bearings.

Or maybe Simca is right, why the washer(s)?

And about the front taper roller bearings I would be more concerned about the inner, which is rather delicate and more difficult to find. When I changed mine on the R10, the new ones were FAG and came with a spec sheet and preloading instructions. I followed that.

In a parallel story, just as we were discussing here I found the same problem on my 205GTI. Somebody who shall remain nameless forgot to stake the driveshaft nut on the right side. The nut had backed off a tiny bit and it felt like a tiny hesitation through the steering wheel when changing direction. I knew my GTI's steering response was absolutely immediate before so I investigated on the spot and all was rectified to good results.
 
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JohnW

Too many posts!
The earlier Dauphine workshop manuals have an error and have the wrong tightening torque on the hub nut. It's far too low. They'd corrected it by Floride times though.

Do you need a replacement split/tapered washer? I could post you one I imagine if I went hunting. You wouldn't want much less than 160 lbs/ft, that's for sure. I lashed out on the next size up torque wrench last time I did rear hub work!

I can't begin to understand why you don't have a split pin hole visible.
 

Sunroof

1000+ Posts
Looking at the other side shows there are actually two split pin holes that are off set. The second hole on the left axle has a sheared off split pin in it and therefore I did not see it. This doesn't seem like a recent shear as there were no split pin ends in the hub cap. The right side nut was also a bit loose. I found that the V washers have worn to the point where the nut appears as if it might hit the end of the thread. So I'll use the flat washer tighten up to 145 ftlbs then remove the flat washer and replace the V washer then add a flat washer just to make sure the thread has a bit to spare. I have had a worn V washer on one side of my 10 a few years ago. The V washers are thin at the small end and looking at some others they seem to have a bit more meat. My tension wrench only goes to 150 ftlbs and so I'll go to 145 ftlbs and then a touch more. Why have the washers worn? On the 10 the nut was also worn where the washer was working but the 10 had a bent axle so that makes sense. Perhaps the Floride has bent axles? Some of the roads in NSW that we travel on to Musters are pretty rough and pot holey as a rule, so perhaps that is the answer. I really don't want two more bent axles, even though I have some spares, changing them is another job I don't need.
 

JohnW

Too many posts!
Given the length of the spline, I reckon a slightly bent shaft wouldn't affect a tight nut and tapered washer one little bit if the spline isn't/wasn't worn. I reckon they've just not been tight enough at some stage.

Teaching you to suck eggs of course, but do be sure the split washer isn't fully closed on itself.... :) I'm blushing to even make the comment! Shout if you are desperate for washers.

I reckon 145 and then to the next hole would be good! You could extend the scale on the wrench but it sounds like a bad idea to me..... The top end stated is 180 of course. That bloke who makes milling machines would have a bigger one I reckon....
 

jaahn

1000+ Posts
Nuts and
Check out how to set Tapered roller bearings TAPERED BEARINGS
This link is like a definitive reference
Securing nut needs backing off to avoid failure. Endplay should be about 0.001 to 0.005 inches.
Hi :)
Regarding the setting of front wheel tapered bearings, I would say this from my experience. This is not in conflict with the above reference.
When drum brakes were de rigueur the old standard of backing off to the next hole or so was OK but after disc brakes arrived this was too slack and allowed movement and 'pad knock off' problems. So as Driven said it became 1-5 thou endplay. The pressed multi fit 'thing' over the nut with multi slots were used. Better vehicles had lock nut pairs or clamp split nuts to enable the infinite small adjustment. Since then I use this method to feel for that small clearance. Preload and turn the wheel to seat the bearings and then back off till you can just move the bearing washer behind the nut by using your fingers only. Presto a couple of thou clearance and no discernable movement. ;)

In this wheel bearing situation any preload will seriously reduce the life of the bearings. The grease will be slowly squeezed out of the working areas and failure. But in a diff, for instance the bearings are preloaded to give rigidity but the bearings are under continuous oil flow for cooling and lubrication. Other industrial applications are different and the detail differences might not be obvious to the inexperienced mechanic so be careful of some other suggestions. As that article says the bearing companies developed Pre Set Assemblies that need to only be torqued up to a set high torque by the robot machine :rolleyes:

I had some experience with VW rear axles with cone washers and high torque settings. From my experience then the cones and the hubs do wear if not tight to the 180Ft lbs. Then they always need regular re tightening or the hub splines might wear out and you loose drive ?? So replace the cone washer and the hub if things do not work out so the axle nut slots will line up correctly at the correct torque. You can carefully file the back of the nut a tiny amount to help with the hole alignment. o_O
Jaahn
 

JohnW

Too many posts!
Where does the split tapered washer go and what for? Can't remember now.
It sits in a machined taper on the outside of the hub spline area. Tightening the hub nut presses it into the taper and its "split" allows it to move down and split narrows. Critical that the split doesn't close..... That gives you the tightness and stops lateral movement of the splined coupling I guess. As Jaahn says, once they start moving and wearing, that keeps going.
 

Sunroof

1000+ Posts
I have tightened the nut to what I guess to be 160 ftlbs and the split pin hole lines up. I have double checked there is enough thread and there is. I am happy with the result now and the next test is a drive. The bend in the R10 axle was only just noticeable when spun between centres, but very noticeable when a wheel was attached. Tightening with a flat washer was done, according to the manual, to ensure the bearing is properly seated before the V cone washer is tightened. If the bearing is not tightly seated it can later move and allow the nut to loosen.
 

Sunroof

1000+ Posts
I have had a RER's for 58 years and mainly as daily drivers before retirement for either me, wife or son, and prior to that raced one for a few years. It is only recently the R10 had a bent axle and over the years the cars have often been driven hard with no obvious damage to the axles. But perhaps the metal is now getting old or not holding its original strength. Perhaps pot holes get bigger and deeper.
 

JohnW

Too many posts!
I have had a RER's for 58 years and mainly as daily drivers before retirement for either me, wife or son, and prior to that raced one for a few years. It is only recently the R10 had a bent axle and over the years the cars have often been driven hard with no obvious damage to the axles. But perhaps the metal is now getting old or not holding its original strength. Perhaps pot holes get bigger and deeper.
I reckon any bend in the axle would stress the bearing, depending upon the amount of slop in the UJ and the UJ of course. I just can't see how it would affect the hub IF it were tight enough and the splines unworn. Oddly, I have the problem at the other end: despite careful balancing and rebalancing, wheel refurbishment and front end rebushing I just can't get rid of what feels like wheel imbalance on really smooth roads at 100 kph in the R8. Next step is to swap rear to front and try again.
 

schlitzaugen

1000+ Posts
When you say bent axle, you mean the driveshaft, right? I can't imagine how this would bend but I am sure someone has found a way. Is the bend in the end section where the driveshaft exits the bearings? Or is it somewhere in the middle so to speak? Just academic, I know, but I am trying to figure out how you'd achieve that.
 

Sunroof

1000+ Posts
Geez, now NSW is being blamed for bent axles as well! Lol
Glad it is sorted Sunroof.

KB
Do you ever travel on your roads in the north west and north centre of the state of NSW? If so you'd know what I mean. Try the Newel Highway after rain some times.
 
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Sunroof

1000+ Posts
I think from memory the bend was just inside where the bearing fits. I recently wanted to use it on my wheel balancer but the uni end moves quite significantly when the hub is spun. Didn't actually measure it but perhaps 3 mm at that end when the bearing carrier is bolted down tight.

schlitzy .... to me an axle is an axle and a disc is a disc. A drive shaft has fitted uni joints or similar and the axle is inclusive and usually cannot be easily removed from the unis or what ever joint is connected at each end.

I'd take a photo if it wasn't so hard to get them small enough.
 
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