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Re-lubricating Fluidbloc bushes for R8 upper wishbones

schlitzaugen

1000+ Posts
Hi :)
I would not argue against schlitz's suggestion but good old rubber grease is specifically made for rubber and metal interaction and easy to get also. But either way how are you proposing getting it in to the working area. It is probably in there but just needs a bit of activation(heat) and redistrubition(turning the parts) a few times and even a bit of "tapping' with a piece of wood or rubber hammer.
Is it worth pulling the wishbone out and just getting a drill and a way of driving the inner around at a modest speed for a while both ways to 'free it up' ;) not too fast or might get too hot inside.

The way to get good unstressed life from the Silentbloc bushes is to tighten the nut with the car at the usual height on the wheels. This may not be with 40Kg in the boot for your car. Perhaps it never has anything in there. Put your weight in the drivers seat and possibly a passenger seat weight also depending on the 'normal' usage now a days.
Jaahn
That silicone grease is used to lubricate rubber o ring seals, so I take it they put some effort in making sure it won't destroy the rubber. From what I have seen using it is practically chemically inert (like I said, years of staying in there and when you open it, it is still there, smells exactly the same, no colour change, no nada). I don't know if it's the best solution, but you know what they say, so far so good.
 

JohnW

Too many posts!
I use Dow Corning Molykote 111 silicone grease as mentioned above. You'll find it at bearing places? That's where I buy it, anyway. BSC O'Connor have it on the shelf.
Thanks so much for that specific advice. I went and bought a tube yesterday. It is an excellent-feeling (!) and high viscosity grease that should retain well inside the reassembled bushes. It's quite a bit stiffer than the original grease btw. Naturally I'll need about 5% of the tube's capacity - the rest will probably last my lifetime!
The rubber surface on the inner part of the bushes is pretty reasonable and I'm quite confident they'll give many more years of service.
From subsequent research and discussions from here to France and back, I reckon the original Fluidbloc bushes haven't been made for quite a few years.
 

schlitzaugen

1000+ Posts
Try it, but don't hold your breath.

I have pulled all the stops and found nothing that works so I use a few toilet rolls to wipe my hands and then don't go rock climbing for a while.
 

JAJEA

Member
Quite interesting John. I also have been busy today ripping out the rear axle to replace the trailing arms (come with new bushes).
You must have spurred me on.
Just as well Shoji that the new bushes were included in the replacement trailing arms but for the record you do not need a press for (most) Silentbloc removal/installations.
All you need is a vice and depending on the size of the component housing the Silentbloc determines the size of the vice required.
A 4" /5" vice more than sufficient for most applications. In addition to the vice you need a socket (ISO, BS or SAE or whatever) just smaller than the diameter of the outer to push the Silentbloc out and on the other side a socket big enough to accommodate the outer diameter of the Silentbloc being pushed out.
If, no sockets are suitable, you need access a lathe (or friend that has one) to turn down tubes/pipes or whatever to suit.
Beware that it is essential that the three (3) components in the vice (same applies in a press) are lined up.
John
 

JohnW

Too many posts!
Just as well Shoji that the new bushes were included in the replacement trailing arms but for the record you do not need a press for (most) Silentbloc removal/installations.
All you need is a vice and depending on the size of the component housing the Silentbloc determines the size of the vice required.
A 4" /5" vice more than sufficient for most applications. In addition to the vice you need a socket (ISO, BS or SAE or whatever) just smaller than the diameter of the outer to push the Silentbloc out and on the other side a socket big enough to accommodate the outer diameter of the Silentbloc being pushed out.
If, no sockets are suitable, you need access a lathe (or friend that has one) to turn down tubes/pipes or whatever to suit.
Beware that it is essential that the three (3) components in the vice (same applies in a press) are lined up.
John
Agreed. Not always though as the narrow upper wishbones sometimes make use of a vice impracticable. But it is relatively easy with a long thread bolt and spacers, washers etc - in this case a 2 1/2" reducing galv socket to receive the bush, which is pulled from right to left.
Lower wishbone bush extraction sml.jpg
 
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Shoji

Renault 17 TL 1312
Well thought through John!! Nice workshop and house, as I know your your abode first hand! If I didn't have the factory, I don't know what I would do for this kind of work on my Renault. My place has no workshop/garage like yours. Hmm..dreaming ideas now.
 

Shoji

Renault 17 TL 1312
Just as well Shoji that the new bushes were included in the replacement trailing arms but for the record you do not need a press for (most) Silentbloc removal/installations.
All you need is a vice and depending on the size of the component housing the Silentbloc determines the size of the vice required.
A 4" /5" vice more than sufficient for most applications. In addition to the vice you need a socket (ISO, BS or SAE or whatever) just smaller than the diameter of the outer to push the Silentbloc out and on the other side a socket big enough to accommodate the outer diameter of the Silentbloc being pushed out.
If, no sockets are suitable, you need access a lathe (or friend that has one) to turn down tubes/pipes or whatever to suit.
Beware that it is essential that the three (3) components in the vice (same applies in a press) are lined up.
John
Thanks for the good info Jajea. I think I replaced the bearing for the fan on the old 807 years ago using a similar method.
 

jaahn

1000+ Posts
Agreed. Not always though as the narrow upper wishbones sometimes make use of a vice impracticable. But it is relatively easy with a long head bolt and spacers, washers etc - in this case a 2 1/2" reducing galv socket to receive the bush, which is pulled from right to left. View attachment 123100
Hi :)
Years ago when I ran a small engine repair shop I had a home built tool for removing and replacing the big end pin + rod + rollers in the pressed together crankshaft in the old Victa engines. Made up with a couple of thick plates and spacers and high tensile UNF bolts. Easy enough to pull the pin out and then press another back in with the rollers and rod and some lube. In a simple jig to align the crankshaft halves as it went together.
The hard part which needed a bit of practice, was to do a final precision alignment with a dial gauge between centers. You had to hit the halves hard to move them a bit on the pin or bump them on a block of wood. You got good at it after a while, like most things. This was a winter job when you were stuck for work. :rolleyes:
Jaahn
 

schlitzaugen

1000+ Posts
That's the best way to deal with bushes. Threaded rod and appropriately sized push/pull steel discs. I gave up using the 10ton press for many reasons, but mainly because you have to align square all sorts of odd shapes (205GTI suspension arms for instance) and if they're not dead nuts square, they can bite you. The press is not forgiving. If you have a lathe it's a 5 minutes job to turn a steel disc to the perfect size with safety shoulders and any other feature you like but in the past I found all sorts of things lying about that would fit any job. Bearing races are my favourites. Perfectly round, close tolerances, tough steel, pretty much any size you can dream up, what's not to like? Plus you can use these to drive in/out new bearings!

I still shudder when I think of mechanics burning through rubber with a blow torch to change your bushings. I only had a shop do it once for my wife's Civic back then and when he told me how he did it I promised myself no car of ours will see mechanics again. Heating cast steel and suspension parts no less is a sure fire recipe to distort something and then you wonder why your wheel alignment is out of whack.
 
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JohnW

Too many posts!
That's the best way to deal with bushes. Threaded rod and appropriately sized push/pull steel discs. I gave up using the 10ton press for many reasons, but mainly because you have to align square all sorts of odd shapes (205GTI suspension arms for instance) and if they're not dead nuts square, they can bite you. The press is not forgiving. If you have a lathe it's a 5 minutes job to turn a steel disc to the perfect size with safety shoulders and any other feature you like but in the past I found all sorts of things lying about that would fit any job. Bearing races are my favourites. Perfectly round, close tolerances, tough steel, pretty much any size you can dream up, what's not to like? Plus you can use these to drive in/out new bearings!

I still shudder when I think of mechanics burning through rubber with a blow torch to change your bushings. I only had a shop do it once for my wife's Civic back then and when he told me how he did it I promised myself no car of ours will see mechanics again. Heating cast steel and suspension parts no less is a sure fire recipe to distort something and then you wonder why your wheel alignment is out of whack.
It's important to know what NOT to throw away and, equally important, how to store them so that you can find them when you discover that you need them. :)

I have quite a few labelled jars and other containers....
 

jaahn

1000+ Posts
Hi Schlitz :)
Yes a press can get you into trouble, particularly if getting the alignment is difficult, like a wishbone or arm. Manually doing the pressure with your hands it is easy to tell it is going in OK and you can watch the movement.:cool:
When my mate and I fitted the silentblocs to the front carrier and arm for the old Citroen Traction we used a big press ay my ex-workplace with "excess" capacity. It is a shit 1930 design to fit together and is probably easy in the factory with the usual assortment of SS tools listed in the book. And high tonnages required too.
We got the first one apart and back together OK Needs splines lining up as you press through the splined sinlentbloc and through the arm and into the second silentbloc while the lot is sitting in the cradle on its side. Great, then on to the second one. But we missed the spline alignment a bit going into the arm and as the tonnage went up rapidly we though is it just a bit older and rusty or what ? After a few more tons we called it quits and then had to press it apart again. The male spline was forming its own splines in the arm !! Bugger. Overconfident !:mad:
Had to clean it up and file the splines at the start and come back another day to finish it. Too much power and not enough manual feed back to know what was happening. All good in the end. Thank god they do'not make cars like that any more :rolleyes:
Jaahn
 

Shoji

Renault 17 TL 1312
I neglected to mention that the wrecked bush, one of four I'd add, is a Silentbloc bush from the lower wishbones. The upper Fluidblock ones seem just fine but need lubrication.

Very funny! :)
Then I think I know the winner here John, Fluidblock 1 :approve:, Silentbloc nil :dead: A much better bush :party:
 

JohnW

Too many posts!
Then I think I know the winner here John, Fluidblock 1 :approve:, Silentbloc nil :dead: A much better bush :party:
I'll email you my draft article on the subject..... In this case, I suspect the Silentbloc bushes failed due to incorrect assembly by me 20 years ago - tightened up the system with the suspension in the wrong place, slightly. So they were probably overstressed in an angular sense. I do wonder how the car would ride with Nolathane but I'm not going there for a number of reasons. Cheers
 

Shoji

Renault 17 TL 1312
I'll email you my draft article on the subject..... In this case, I suspect the Silentbloc bushes failed due to incorrect assembly by me 20 years ago - tightened up the system with the suspension in the wrong place, slightly. So they were probably overstressed in an angular sense. I do wonder how the car would ride with Nolathane but I'm not going there for a number of reasons. Cheers
Ah yes John, tightened up incorrectly would make sense for the rubber to strip like that. I just removed the centre Y shaped suspension arm from Ren 17 rear axle and found the silentbloc's in great condition after 47 years of use! Amazing. I will replace with the new part as the rubber bushes would have changed in some chemical sense, in a guess. The front suspension (mentioned earlier), I did tighten the king pins as per guide. Would help big time re: ride wise, I imagine. And it does travel well, even at 105miles per hr. ;)

Rear Suspension parts.jpg
 

JohnW

Too many posts!
Quite interesting John. I also have been busy today ripping out the rear axle to replace the trailing arms (come with new bushes).
You must have spurred me on.
They pushed back together easily by hand with Mr Schlitz's recommended grease. When I tightened up the upper wishbone bolt to its specified torque they felt exactly the same as when new - just fell under their own weight and with no discernable side-play. Lucky the lower bushes failed or I'd not have discovered the upper ones needed lubrication! Job 90% done now. Mind you, the 10% includes rebleeding the brakes.....
 
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